What part of the bible
- Thread starter MobiusX
- Start date
Nightrain
Senior Registered
When people say that references to reincarnation were "removed" from the bible, they are often oversimplifying what really happened, which is far more complicated than anyone could imagine. First of all, there was no actual "bible" during the first few hundred years of Christianity, but rather some versions of the Hebrew scriptures, numerous varied gospels claimed to have been written by several of the original apostles, plus theological writings from the far reaches of the known world, each reflecting different and often contradictory beliefs. It is quite true that many of those beliefs did include many references to reincarnation.MobiusX said:
At various points during the first six hundred years, representatives of the church as well as some kings and emperors clashed violently with each other over many of the contradictory issues until, eventually, we were left with a "canon" or bible made up of the Old Testament and the New Testament, which was made up of only one-third of all the original documents. No only that, much of what remained was subtly translated from the original languages in order to support only the final doctrines which established concepts that had nothing to do with what was actually known about Christ's original teachings. In fact, much of what Christ is said to have taught has been mysteriously lost.
So, it is not enough to say that references to reincarnation were deleted. It is more accurate to say that the bible was actually assembled long after the time of Christ and that the remaining parts were cobbled together to fit a human perception of Christ's teachings as well as the political needs of Western society at the time.
Many scholars, who are today unbiased by Theological training, point out that early Christians were heavily influenced by Greek philosophy which largely accepted reincarnation, but also by Buddhism, which was also being taught in the Middle East during the time of Christ. It is further known that, even though Christianity sprang up as a sect of Judiasm, it varied from Judiasm and still does in almost every way that was characteristic of Buddhism, except that all references to reincarnation are mysteriously missing.
In view of these facts, I think it is rather pointless to look for proof of reincarnation in the bible. I don't wish to diminish anyone's faith in any way by discrediting the bible as a source, but I would suggest that anyone considering it as a source should study not just the bible, but also the history of how it evolved.
Hello Mobius,
Check out the thread Reincarnation and the Bible it was a good discussion.
Nightrain nice post, that's my understanding also.
Tman
Check out the thread Reincarnation and the Bible it was a good discussion.
Nightrain nice post, that's my understanding also.
Tman
Even though I’ve been accused of being a good writer 
(but a terrible mathematician
) “Nightrain” has once again taken the very words out of my mouth and put pen to paper (or electrons to flash memory) and I can only look upon his writing with admiration!
When I’ve tried to explain the history of the Bible to most people, I’ve been met with reactions ranging from “How dare you EVEN question MY book” (like THEY wrote it or something) to a questioning person who has a mindset that would quietly have a logical discussion with you.
Over the years I’ve been careful not to allow a conversation to be steered into the turbulent waters of traditional religion, but to keep my eyes open in the darkness before dawn for those conversations that bring me much happiness and education.
Nightrain’s reply here, has once again, brought me much happiness!
(but a terrible mathematician) “Nightrain” has once again taken the very words out of my mouth and put pen to paper (or electrons to flash memory) and I can only look upon his writing with admiration!When I’ve tried to explain the history of the Bible to most people, I’ve been met with reactions ranging from “How dare you EVEN question MY book” (like THEY wrote it or something) to a questioning person who has a mindset that would quietly have a logical discussion with you.
Over the years I’ve been careful not to allow a conversation to be steered into the turbulent waters of traditional religion, but to keep my eyes open in the darkness before dawn for those conversations that bring me much happiness and education.
Nightrain’s reply here, has once again, brought me much happiness!
Nicely put nightrain. I am reading a good book right now that might be a good starting point for those looking into historical content via ancient texts. It is called Creating the Soul Body...The Sacred Science of Immortality; from Vedic, Egytian, Hebraic, and Pythagorean traditions. by Robert E. Cox.
In the book he quotes Hermetic sages.
kiyoko_moon418
Dreams and spirit
Elijah
Hi
I am Catholic and have wondered about this too..i remember researching it and althought here is nothing there that says "reincarnation is true" there is something odd about elijah being john or something like this....someone says that John was Elijah...im sorry if i dont make sense but i would research "elijah": angel
Hi
I am Catholic and have wondered about this too..i remember researching it and althought here is nothing there that says "reincarnation is true" there is something odd about elijah being john or something like this....someone says that John was Elijah...im sorry if i dont make sense but i would research "elijah": angel
Cryscat
Senior Member
Matt. 17:10-13
And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist."
Here is where Jesus identifies John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah.
http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history.html
And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist."
Here is where Jesus identifies John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah.
http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history.html
HI MobiusX ,
Question - What version of the Bible are you referring too?
Question - What version of the Bible are you referring too?
And have your read Steve and Carol's research on this?
dking777
Senior Registered
igotplans2
New Member
Reincarnation and the bible
Actually, you don't even have to go as far as trying to locate what might have been "removed" from the bible to get the proper picture on reincarnation. There are enough tacit implications still there. I believe someone already made reference to John the Baptist, and the belief by MANY at the time he began preaching that he was the prophet Elijah reincarnated. And that's because their religious tradition and writings had clearly indicated Elijah would return, in another body. There's also the story of the young man who begged for alms outside the temple complex because he was blind and mute from birth, and was instantly healed by Jesus (key phrase being "from birth"). It had been asked by witnesses to this man if he was born that way because of his parents' sins or wrongs he had done himself in a previous life. Why would they even have such a question if there wasn't a common belief that souls return in order to set past things right? And we also see at least two examples in the bible of individuals returning to the earthly realm after being dead. Not kind of dead, or seeming to be dead, but DEAD. Lazarus had been dead and buried for so many days that his corpse was stinking by the time Jesus came back and resurrected him. So, we have evidence of both reincarnation and coming back from the other side into the same body.
Those who started the whole business of referring to belief in reincarnation as unbiblical are actually misinterpreting and misrepresenting a single verse from scripture, Hebrews 9:27, which says, "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (from the NIV). There's a big presumption there, that a soul is inextricably linked to just one fleshly body. There's likewise a faulty assumption about what 'judgment' refers to. We know from the vast numbers of recorded near-death experiences that people who die do face a judgment of sorts, most often referred to by them as a life review. And during that event they're shown things that were both pleasing to God and things that were hurtful to others. They come back and report that this was done in an unbelievably loving way, and the judgment they felt was what they laid upon themselves because of how they felt in the presence of such a holy. loving, completely forgiving, and accepting God. It's my opinion that any believer in the God of the bible would have no choice but to reverse their stance on reincarnation if they took the time to read a few accounts of near-death experiencers, people who've had pre-death visions/angelic visitations, and children who detail previous lives.
Actually, you don't even have to go as far as trying to locate what might have been "removed" from the bible to get the proper picture on reincarnation. There are enough tacit implications still there. I believe someone already made reference to John the Baptist, and the belief by MANY at the time he began preaching that he was the prophet Elijah reincarnated. And that's because their religious tradition and writings had clearly indicated Elijah would return, in another body. There's also the story of the young man who begged for alms outside the temple complex because he was blind and mute from birth, and was instantly healed by Jesus (key phrase being "from birth"). It had been asked by witnesses to this man if he was born that way because of his parents' sins or wrongs he had done himself in a previous life. Why would they even have such a question if there wasn't a common belief that souls return in order to set past things right? And we also see at least two examples in the bible of individuals returning to the earthly realm after being dead. Not kind of dead, or seeming to be dead, but DEAD. Lazarus had been dead and buried for so many days that his corpse was stinking by the time Jesus came back and resurrected him. So, we have evidence of both reincarnation and coming back from the other side into the same body.
Those who started the whole business of referring to belief in reincarnation as unbiblical are actually misinterpreting and misrepresenting a single verse from scripture, Hebrews 9:27, which says, "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (from the NIV). There's a big presumption there, that a soul is inextricably linked to just one fleshly body. There's likewise a faulty assumption about what 'judgment' refers to. We know from the vast numbers of recorded near-death experiences that people who die do face a judgment of sorts, most often referred to by them as a life review. And during that event they're shown things that were both pleasing to God and things that were hurtful to others. They come back and report that this was done in an unbelievably loving way, and the judgment they felt was what they laid upon themselves because of how they felt in the presence of such a holy. loving, completely forgiving, and accepting God. It's my opinion that any believer in the God of the bible would have no choice but to reverse their stance on reincarnation if they took the time to read a few accounts of near-death experiencers, people who've had pre-death visions/angelic visitations, and children who detail previous lives.
dking777
Senior Registered
Yes. I was constantly bombarded with this verse after my own NDE's when I tried to speak of the 'truth' I was shown concerning reincarnation. It is taken out of context of what the author was writing about. In my opinion - it was a comparable between the 'old' 'and the 'new' covenant - and making the point of "Christ" not having to return yearly for a yearly sacrifice as the old system required. Hebrews 9:18-28 (I read someone make a reference to Lazarus when it came to this particular scripture.)igotplans2 said:
There is are several interesting notes in the Scofield Reference Bible concerning this passage.
- (2) Physical death affects the body only, and is neither cessation of life nor of consciousness. (Habakkuk 2:5; See note page 956_3; Luke 16:23, See note page 1098_1 ; Rev. 6:9-10)
- (5) Physical death has for the believer a peculiar qualification. It is called "sleep," because his body may be "awakened" at any moment. (Phil. 3:20-21; 1 Thes. 4:14-18).
- (6) The soul and spirit live, independently of the death of the body, which is described as a "tabernacle" (tent), in which the "I" dwells, and which may be put off. (2 Cor. 5:1-8; cf. 1 Cor. 15:42-44; 2 Pet. 1:13-15). Reference: Scofield Notes
The saying goes, "It is all a matter of interpretation."
DK
Cryscat
Senior Member
Here is an interesting link that is going over what we are discussing:
http://cryskernan.tripod.com/christian_reincarnation.htm
http://cryskernan.tripod.com/christian_reincarnation.htm
dking777
Senior Registered
That is an artical by Kevin Williams who is a researcher for the 'near-death' experience. The link to the three articles on his website are:Cryscat said:
- Reincarnation in Christian History
- Reincarnation and the Church
- Reincarnation and the Bible
He also has other pages pertaining to reincarnation.
- Christian NDE's and Reincarnation
- Reincarnation and Israel
- Resurrection and Reincarnation
- NDE and Reincarnation
- NDE and Reincarnation: Research Conclusions
For a more complete view of Kevin's research on the subject.
DKing
Carol has an interesting article here on her website. Perhaps it will spark more discussion and or reflection.
Authorship of the Bible - By Jim Blanston
Authorship of the Bible - By Jim Blanston
Marc Ross
Senior Registered
Christianity and Reincarnation
RELATED: Here is a link to the thread: 'Christianity and Reincarnation'
http://www.reincarnationforum.com/threads/christianity-and-reincarnation.2402/
RELATED: Here is a link to the thread: 'Christianity and Reincarnation'
http://www.reincarnationforum.com/threads/christianity-and-reincarnation.2402/
janetfdoss
Banned
Thanks for the link here. It helped me.Marc Ross said:
rjmarzano
rjmarzano
I think Christ mentioned reincarnation a few times but I'm not sure His goal was to try to delve into those types of deep spiritual subjects.
Christ explained spiritual truths in a way that everyone can easily understand. He wasn't talking to PhDs back then. Christ often used simple parables that involve the mysteries of nature to explain things. We may forget how complicated it was for someone to say things which He felt were true for everyone and which can be easily understood by everyone.
In any case mythology, astrology, and reincarnation were three subjects that got left out of Christian philosophy. Those subjects and the interconnections between those subjects may have been more involved than what Christ was trying to do at that time.
I don't think it's true that reincarnation was removed from the bible. It is in the bible but people don't realize it.
One problem with the bible is it is not a tape recording of exactly what was said anyway. Even people who heard Jesus Christ speak may not have understood what He was talking about. But I think the bible is accurate enough that we can conclude that Christ wasn't overly concerned about explaining the concept of reincarnation for whatever reasons.
◄ Jeremiah 1:5 ►
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Christ explained spiritual truths in a way that everyone can easily understand. He wasn't talking to PhDs back then. Christ often used simple parables that involve the mysteries of nature to explain things. We may forget how complicated it was for someone to say things which He felt were true for everyone and which can be easily understood by everyone.
In any case mythology, astrology, and reincarnation were three subjects that got left out of Christian philosophy. Those subjects and the interconnections between those subjects may have been more involved than what Christ was trying to do at that time.
I don't think it's true that reincarnation was removed from the bible. It is in the bible but people don't realize it.
One problem with the bible is it is not a tape recording of exactly what was said anyway. Even people who heard Jesus Christ speak may not have understood what He was talking about. But I think the bible is accurate enough that we can conclude that Christ wasn't overly concerned about explaining the concept of reincarnation for whatever reasons.
◄ Jeremiah 1:5 ►
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."