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What is reincarnation?

John Tat

John Tat

Senior Registered
If reincarnation is not fully understood then what is real about reincarnation and what is not real about reincarnation?
I will give an example of what I'm talking about
A flower grows in the garden. It grows strong green and straight. In time it produces a beautiful red and orange flower. It basks in its beauty. It has fully matured. In time the flower grows old and dies. We gather up the dead flower and either throw it in the trash, burn it or return it to the soil. The flower is dead.
But it leaves behind a bulb. Within that bulb is everything the dead flower was. We dig the bulb up, and take it inside. A year so so later we replant the bulb back into the soil the bulb that the dead flower left behind after it died That bulb produces another flower which is the same species as the dead flower. The new flower is not the dead physical flower. How could it be? That physical flower died never to return, you probably threw it in the trash
Is that reincarnation? If it is then what is the bulb, that the original flower produced be it died?
The argument could be made that the flower had no soul. I'm not talking about what does and what does not have a soul I'm talking about what reincarnates and what does not
 
re•in•car•na•tion (?ri ?n k?r?ne? ??n)
n.


1. the belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form.


2. rebirth of the soul in a new body.


3. a new incarnation or embodiment, as of a person.
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The bulb is part of the plant itself. The flower that you see is part of the reproductive stage of the plant and in the case of dormancy, which is not 'death' as you mentioned, the bulb acts as a storage organ. The plant is not dead to begin with, the new flower is not the dead flower because it is a new flower, that is how plants reproduce. This is a biological process that is explained very easily, you are mistaken in use of this analogy in the first place, regardless of any 'soul' the plant may or may not possess.

I'm not talking about what does and what does not have a soul I'm talking about what reincarnates and what does not
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In the case that this logical fallacy was not intentional and assuming that you aren't trolling, I'll refer you again to the above definition of reincarnation. I think you'll find that what you're asking is explained very simply there. If you're confused about what is or isn't a soul, I'll include the following. This definition is very simple and this belief can vary somewhat, but I think you'll find the concept within:

soul
[sohl]


noun


1.


the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
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Methinks before you try and analogize further and wrack your brain about what all does or does not reincarnate, you should first decide whether you would reincarnate. Don't worry about anybody else, or plants or rocks or what have you. Does the concept of having an identity that is separate from the body make sense to you? Is that something that you can personally relate to? If not, then the idea and process of reincarnation might not make sense to you and that's fine. If a spiritual identity separate from body is something that you eschew, if you think that you are your body entirely, that's all right. The process, in my own evaluation, is quite rational. It is also very, very old, and has stood the test of time and research. However, I do relate to the concept of self as a spiritual entity, or soul, rather than only a body. It does take some decisions on your part to consider what exactly you think you are. What you might find for yourself as a belief -or lack of such- in the afterlife probably has a lot to do with this. What is real about reincarnation? In the end, after reading all the books you could possibly read and talking to everyone on Earth, what's real about reincarnation is what you find to be real, for yourself.
 
John Tat said:
...Is that reincarnation? If it is then what is the bulb, that the original flower produced be it died?
The argument could be made that the flower had no soul. I'm not talking about what does and what does not have a soul I'm talking about what reincarnates and what does not
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That's a type of reincarnation. In my view everything reincarnates. Everything in nature and the universe is 'recycling' constantly, recombining, renewing, changing, growing, dying... Humanity is no different. The chemicals that make up our bodies, the water, the bacteria, all of it is in constant interaction. Yet, our individual body remains unique to us because of our DNA. I see the way the soul works as similar to this.
 
Hi Spatz


Firstly your description of a bulb is bias. My research aggress it is a storage vessel but nowhere does it claim a flower never dies.


Something is either dead or it is not. To look at a dead flower or physical body and then to claim they are not dead makes no sense. That's what you want me to believe. That makes my description of a reincarnating flower viable The original flower died. If you believe the dead flower I threw in the trash was not dead I would be interested to know why? None of your claims are logical


Is the soul the same as a bulb a storage vessel?


I believe in a reincarnating soul but the same as you said it was never a physical identity.


My belief is reincarnation must always move forwards. The only way there can be a reincarnating individual identity is if the pure you, everything about you that is not physical reincarnates along with its soul. Otherwise the sceptics are right and we only live on physical live then we die never to return,


You said you relate to the concept of a self as a spiritual entity or soul rather than only a physical body . You have acknowledged that you are part physical "Spatz"


What happens to Spatz when the physical body dies? I would be interested to know what you believe will happen to Spatz


Does your soul have physical memory. If you believe it does I would be interest to know why you believe that?. Who and what are you? Only your pure self can answer that. That is if you are in contact with your pure self
 
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Hi John. Do you think it's possible that physical memories can be stored somewhere other than the human brain? Have you heard of the Akashic Records? Have you considered where human consciousness resides? Is it in the brain? In the heart? or could it possibly be somewhere else outside of the physical body? I'm asking you these short and straight to the point questions because I'm still trying to fully understand where you're coming from before I give my opinion. You present some interesting theories and pose some thoughtful questions, and believe me, I completely understand how difficult it can be sometimes to convert the thoughts in your head into words on a keyboard, I have the same problem myself. But for now, I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on those few questions I've asked.
 
Hi ChrisR


No I have never heard about the Akashic records . I will certainly make the effort to learn about them. I'm answering your questions without doing what I have to normally do and that is do them on my computer print the out then write what I have to say so they make sense On this occasion I will go straight from within. My pure self told me to do it that way. Do I think memories can be stored somewhere else other than the human brain In another reply to my first post I asked what is memory? Did you read that post?. It basically said if you eat a piece of chocolate, you cannot recall the memory of what the chocolate tasked like unless you eat another piece of the same chocolate. Those memories in my opinion are physical memories in the brain. Now we get to reparative memory That in my opinion is also in the physical brain That embraces where we live our family and friends the job we do all of those memories we remember just because we do them all the time. Just how good is physical memory. Not very good at all. If we want to remember the words to a song we have to repeat them to ourselves over and over again to remember them. Then that memory is quickly lost if we do not sing the song on a regular basis. What were you doing on this day 12 months ago?. Unless it was something special we have no idea. So what is memory? and where is what memory stored?. Is the world our memory? I went to a friends place late last year. and there right in front of me was this old tin toy car, just as I had when I was around 5-6 years of age. I said to myself and my friend I had one of those when I was kid. It was great to see one again. My question is, was the toy car the memory or not?


So again where is what memory stored?


Where does human consciousness reside? As you would have read I strongly believe in a pure me. Everything about me that is not physical I believe I'm lucky to have such a strong and real connection. That is were most of my understandings come from. My pure self has a direct connection with my soul. As I have said it is the go between my physical brain and my soul. I no longer look upon myself as purely physical My pure self is now a big part of who I'am I believe my consciousness resides within my pure self. That is an important part of me that is not physical so that is where it is. I hope I have put this in way you can understand


regards John Tat
 
John Tat said:
... My pure self has a direct connection with my soul. As I have said it is the go between my physical brain and my soul. I no longer look upon myself as purely physical My pure self is now a big part of who I'am I believe my consciousness resides within my pure self. That is an important part of me that is not physical so that is where it is. I hope I have put this in way you can understand
regards John Tat
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I understand.


The thing is, everyone is this way. It's not the exception. It's the norm. The only difference is many are not aware of it. But many others are. You are beginning to work something out. That's all. That's great.


Welcome John.
 
I'm perhaps misunderstanding what you are saying, but no one believes that we are clones of previous physical bodies, or previous personalities. We move forward - we change - we become "other". The core essence of a human being remains, which is the soul. I will never be born again as a replica of my 15th century body or personality, nor would I want to be. My soul will be the same soul. We all have a "pure self". Whether we are in touch with it or not is immaterial. It is there - it records our experiences like an artist creates a painting. The painting is colored by perception - the Akashic records are not. The Akashic records are free of distortion or the vagaries of physical human perception. They contain all truth about every soul that was ever created.
 
I've been wondering where you have been gathering information on what you feel we believe, John. It seems you may have some misunderstandings about our perspective on the matter, or that you have a different definition in mind than we do for some of the words we use.


When multiple people reflect on the same object for an art project, the images don't look the same. One might color all the shadows and textures in charcoal. One might draw only the outlines with a pen. One might focus on only one part of the whole with a camera. One will paint the colors in oil on canvas.


I have been holding your "perspective on reincarnation" alongside all those that I have found here at the forum and elsewhere, and the primary points actually do match rather well once we get past the natural differences in focus, wording, and style.


Most of us would agree that we have temporal bodies that die and decompose, taking their physical minds, personality, and social position into the grave. We use many terms: the flower, past life, avatar, physical entity, etc. to refer to this disposable, temporary form.

This is what many people believe is their only existence, and so they fear death and feel like they have "only one life to live" or attempt to bring it with them into an after life.

There is a "soul element" to this individual existence that seems capable of anchoring to this world even after death, as a ghost or psychic residue. I don't understand how that happens, but there is evidence that some don't immediately return to their higher self consciousness, even after death. This doesn't seem to happen to those who are aligned with their higher selves, but I haven't studied it too much.

Among those of us who believe in reincarnation it is commonly accepted that this avatar is worn/projected by something more enduring. Again, there are many terms: the bulb, higher self, soul, pure identity. :rolleyes:

Once the avatar dies, the higher self removes its focus from that time and place and sets the memories alongside those of all the other avatars it has worn. This is where it tracks the patterns and gathers them into a greater purpose.

When an avatar becomes aware of their higher self, some people fight with it :eek: others do their best to align with it. I call this process "waking up" though many think of it differently. It is common to think of the higher self as the most important part of our present existence. We realize that there is more to us than we knew, so it changes how we relate to life. We identify it as "my self" though we know only part of that presence can fit into this current life.

Also, the higher self can communicate to us the lessons and experiences from it's prior incarnations so we can learn from them, also. We say "my last life" but we are speaking from the perspective of the higher self when we do so. It is like what we do in this life, looking through an album and recalling the memories in the photos ... only our higher self actually has the tangible "I am feeling this moment" memories on record, not just images. It's a better record system, and sometimes we bring a lot of the influence from the closest records along into this life. I assume it's because the higher self wishes to resolve, correct, or add to those specific experiences in some constructive way.

Also, the higher selves are not alone in their existence. They are advised and mentored by: the structures, guides, other higher selves, etc. They have access to the vast database of Akashic records, and can communicate these things into and through the avatars to help them through life, even before they are awake, by using impulse and "aha!" moments.


Well, that is my take on the basic outlines of reincarnation, John. Do you think I have understood you? Is there something you would add to my summary?
 
I totally agree with MereDreamer. I think the argument is a matter of semantics, more than anything else. We become "aware" when we wake up, and the soul begins to remember. We reconcile that knowledge - for some it is easy, for others it is more disturbing.
 
Well, I respect anyone attempting to answer this question because I know I couldn't. I don't have the knowledge necessary to explain how I know that we come back, it's just something I know. I feel it's kind of futile trying to be logical with this type of topic - it's a topic humans honestly know very little about in the grand scheme of things, we can only theorize. Best thing to do is wait til you die, then the answers will probably all come flooding in - right until we come back again and forget everything once more.
 
Briar Rose and Mere Dreamer


Both of your posts add to my confusion about traditional beliefs. Mere Dreamer believes the physical body dies and Brair Rose claims she is not a replica which is not really saying a part of her physical self is not a reincarnation of dead physical identity. Adding to my confusion is the small amount of understanding I have of children's previous life memories is there is total belief they are a reincarnation of a dead physical identity.


''Briar Rose believes being in contact with your pure self is immaterial. The reality of my beliefs is how could anyone think that when your pure identity and awareness is the only ingredient of it all that is not faith based. It is real


It is also the same as the soul because it is not physical he survives physical death of the body. The same as the soul there is nothing physical about him to die. But it will go through its own dying process without being supported by a soul and physical body


It is in this moment when both the soul and pure identity and awareness have survived physical death of the body the soul can attach itself to the pure identity and awareness (awareness is very important) saving it from going through its dying process and taking it with him to reincarnate


Yes Mere Dreamer you could still be around in 300 years time
 
Oh, are you saying the soul exists independent of its higher self somehow?


I think the soul is an extremely focused section of the higher self, and that focus is so intense that it actually forgets the rest of the higher self exists while in the body ... and sometimes even after the body dies. But once that portion wakes up ... it is always still a part of the whole and doesn't need to beg to become part of the memories retained from that life.


The body itself dies and doesn't come along to the next incarnation ... but I suppose a higher self could keep the cellular memory and rebuild that same body if it wanted to ... or even keep the body alive much longer than we would ever believe possible if it suited them and they had the skills for it. Perhaps that is where awareness would have to come in?


Let's try another illustration. I hope you've played computer games, John, because this might help you understand how I see it.


When I play something like WoW or other multiplayer games, I log in and choose my avatar from the available selection. This avatar isn't me. It can't do everything I do. It is restricted in its activities to the limitations of the game software. But, in a sense, it is also "me" because I choose how to guide the skills and abilities of the avatar in the game.


I can become so absorbed in the game that I forget to stretch my "real" body and ignore hunger and other such daily needs. Now imagine if I could connect my actual mind to the computer so it feels like my game character is my body... I wouldn't even see the world around me, so it would be easy to forget that I am not merely the avatar in the game environment, but a physical person with a life and friends outside the game world.


I think this tangible world is very much like a multi-player game for our higher selves. When the avatars die, they take a break and then choose the next character ... or reincarnate. The part of ourselves that stays behind doesn't become entirely unconscious, we just aren't always aware of that part of ourselves in-game. We can become aware that we are connected to our larger selves, and that awareness gives us the ability to create a better strategy and advance more quickly because we can see past the pixels to the purpose of the game.


Well, no illustration is ever as effective or accurate as the real thing. I am always enjoying how things compare to each other ... the sameness and the differences. This one helps me, a little, when I'm trying to understand who I am.
 
John Tat said:
Mere Dreamer
I do not believe in god
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*laugh* I didn't mention god. I'm sorry if the word "soul" confused you.


We can use the term "consciousness" if you prefer.


edit: Let me use the terms in relation to each other here so you can understand how I use them.


The higher self sends focused consciousness into an avatar in the tangible world. (I used soul, but consciousness works fine.)


The avatar is conscious of itself and the tangible world. It can become aware that its consciousness is an extension of the higher self, and when that happens the consciousness can bring additional knowledge to the life that will enable it to progress more quickly.


The higher self is what I believe you considered to be the "bulb" for the flower.
 
I believe I am a reincarnation of my previous selves. Period. I believe that my soul has inhabited different bodies from the beginning of creation. I don't believe the physical body is reproduced, or an exact replica of the previous personalities, but I suppose as Dreamer suggests, that could be possible. Resurrection and reincarnation are not the same thing. I believe the personality evolves. I believe this is true for everyone - you- John Tat, Me- BriarRose, Tanguerra, MereDreamer, everyone. It doesn't matter if they know it or not, or if some hypothesized "pure self" knows it. We all have a "pure self" or an essence- that is the soul. The soul continues, for everyone. It is deathless, and imperishable. No one is particularly "pure", unless they are an Ascended Master. Then, they may choose to end the cycle of birth, death, and reincarnation - not begin it. I believe some of them choose to stay and help humanity - people like you and me, who are incredibly ordinary, and "impure", but trying really hard to be "better". In the end, it doesn't matter if you agree with me, or I agree with you - these are opinions. The reason we confuse you, is that no two of us believe exactly the same thing! There is no "doctrine", no "chapter and verse". We all believe what we believe, and that is good. We all talk about it, bounce ideas around, and benefit from that. As SkyeSpitFire pointed out - we find out what is true when we die! John Tat, believe me, that will be soon enough. Maybe you will become an Ascended Master, or maybe you will come back as a soldier, sailor, tinker, spy. I don't know. No one does except Divine Consciousness. Oh - I believe in God. Period. :)
 
Quite frankly, the term "God" means many different things to many different people.


I could use many other descriptions to say what I mean and some you might agree with.


For example, I believe there is an over-arching order that holds the universe in relationship to itself. A pattern. A unity that can be seen all the way down to the tiniest fragment of substance that we have found and exists even beyond our limits of discovery. (This is why we have science.)


Or, I could say I believe that there is meaning in everything, that nothing is meaningless ... that there is an awareness or consciousness that observes and values the meaning of the universe and makes it meaningful by that interest. (This is why we have philosophy.)


Or I could say I believe in a love that links everything and exists in the connections between every consciousness. (This is why we have relationships.)


So, yes, I believe in God. I believe in pattern, order, meaning, love, light, and beauty as a conscious part of all existence.
 
ChrisR


I have done some initial research on the Akashic records. Quoting what I have read they are, indestructible tablets of the astral light recording both the past and futures of human thought and action. The mind of god, was another. A type of god that contains the information of every soul and being in the cosmos, was another. Others say Jesus understood or used Akaschic records. So that is what you meant when you asked were is memory stored?


It is hard for me to believe these Akashic records knows what a piece of chocolate tastes like, or how my mother smelt when I was a child, or why I hate spiders.


They are all physical which requires physical emotion and feelings to re experience those memories. Without physical involvement there is no real memory


Just as I don not believe in god its difficult for me to believe in these Akashic files
 
John, the Akashic records are a distillation of all human experience. You have probably read about the fact that during brain surgery, certain areas can be touched, and memory stimulated. The patient relives the experience stored in that area of the brain. Think of the Akashic records as a cosmic brain, storing all memory, all experience, and all knowledge. You don't have to call the cosmic intelligence "God" - think of it as an eternal computing machine, on which the ones we use are modeled, in an infinitely small way.


By the way, kudos for taking the time to read about the Akashic Records, and consider the idea.
 
John, even the tangible forms we live in are built of information, wouldn't you say?


The taste of a specific piece of chocolate that one time, is information. The feeling, scent, resonance of mother's embrace ... is information.


There is no moment that is not also information, because everything is turned into information before it even reaches us as an experience. For example, we taste because our body translates what we place into our mouth into a certain collection of signals. So the idea of recording this information in a way that it can be accessed and even directly re-experienced is quite possible, as I see it.


It is the same idea as picking up the same book and reading it a second time. Even after a few years it contains the same words and events, sequence and plot. Of course, the second time we recognize that we read the story once before. We can also add new experiences of meaning from this "foreknowledge" of what will happen and the changes within our perspective since the last time, adding new dimension to what it means to us. But the story itself remains the same.
 
I agree with what you are saying in one respect. If I read a Harry Potter book, then six months later read it again then yes you are right. What I find it a little more difficult to understand is your distinction between information and memory


I will use your book analogy to show what I mean. A diary is a book. It is a book recording what we do/did every day. As I said yesterday what did you do 12 months ago today?. Unless it was something special we have no idea. If we have kept a dairy and read the diary an then from reading the diary we can recall the memories of what we did twelve months ago, then that is vastly different to re reading the Harry Potter book that only contains information.They are memories of what we did twelve months ago not information from some book that has no connection to us. I cannot see how you can call some memory memory and other memory information
 
Hmm ... well, the only part of the memory a human-made, tangible book of Harry Potter is able to contain is the visual of words and art, the tangible scent and feel of the paper and cover, and the sequence of the story. These are all things we can re-experience through picking up the same book, because they are part of the book. But the book isn't capable of further detail because the record is only words, not the experiences themselves.


I see Akashic memory/records as a more complete collection of memory from every mental reaction and physical sensation (or most of them) ... It might be more like a Star Trek holo deck style record that contains everything from the environment along with the thoughts and sounds, and an added emotional layer. Every element of the experience.


In the end, my understanding is my own. Everyone experiences these things through the filter of their own character, needs, and perceptions.


Further dimensions aren't something we can completely contain or comprehend while within our tangible bodies ... so we weave an internal myth of experience and experiment to communicate the essence of what we have encountered to ourselves in a way we can comprehend. Your myth will necessarily be different than mine because you are a different person, even if the the mystery you're explaining to yourself is the same.
 
I found an interesting note regarding Edgar Cayce and where his information "came from."


According to Gina Cerminara -- a psychologist, it had to do with what the readings called the "Akashic Records" -- but Cayce spelled out the term Akasha which is a Sanskrit word that refers to the fundamental etheric substance of the universe, electro-spiritual in composition.


Within the Akasha there is an indelible record of every sound, light, movement, or thought since the beginning of the manifest Universe. The ancients understood that the ability to 'read" these vibratory records lies inherent within each of us, depending on the sensitivity of the individual, and can be available to us if we learn to "fine tune" our consciousness.


It was by way of these "records" that Cayce could "see" the past lives of others.


Have any of you read the book The Holographic Universe? Fascinating. An older thread of interest to help explain why I brought it up.
 
An excellent book indeed Deborah. Fascinating stuff.


I also recommend a book, simply titled "Reincarnation" by Dr Hans Tem Dan, a no-nonsense Dutch psychiatrist who explains many things about this topic with good basic, step-by-step clarity. It's on Amazon I think. Google it.


:)
 
Mere Dreamer said:
I see Akashic memory/records as a more complete collection of memory from every mental reaction and physical sensation (or most of them) ... It might be more like a Star Trek holo deck style record that contains everything from the environment along with the thoughts and sounds, and an added emotional layer. Every element of the experience.
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This parallels my experience in the records...what I sense carries aspects far greater than I can explain with significance well beyond my ability to comprehend.
 
What is Reincarnation? CONT...


Hello,


After reading/analyzing plenty of the Past Life Forum content, I (and many others) are still asking, "what is reincarnation?"


Hence, bumping-up a discussion thread that asks an obvious question; that is a discussion thread that remarkably mentions the word "tangible" quite a few times. There is so little that is 'tangible' regarding reincarnation.
 
John Tat said:
If reincarnation is not fully understood then what is real about reincarnation and what is not real about reincarnation?
I will give an example of what I'm talking about


A flower grows in the garden. It grows strong green and straight. In time it produces a beautiful red and orange flower. It basks in its beauty. It has fully matured. In time the flower grows old and dies. We gather up the dead flower and either throw it in the trash, burn it or return it to the soil. The flower is dead.


But it leaves behind a bulb. Within that bulb is everything the dead flower was. We dig the bulb up, and take it inside. A year so so later we replant the bulb back into the soil the bulb that the dead flower left behind after it died That bulb produces another flower which is the same species as the dead flower. The new flower is not the dead physical flower. How could it be? That physical flower died never to return, you probably threw it in the trash


Is that reincarnation? If it is then what is the bulb, that the original flower produced be it died?


The argument could be made that the flower had no soul. I'm not talking about what does and what does not have a soul I'm talking about what reincarnates and what does not
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The soul is a separate and more fundamental aspect of a life form than a physical body is, just like a mind is. I like to think of the soul as a sort of energetic potential that has a certain level of conscious awareness, can retain a memory, and can effect matter at the quantum level. the best understanding I've come across that would explain what I'm talking about are Rupert Sheldrake's concept of morphogenic fields. I'll refer you to wikipedia for more on that.
 
John Tat said:
Hi Spatz
Does your soul have physical memory. If you believe it does I would be interest to know why you believe that?. Who and what are you? Only your pure self can answer that. That is if you are in contact with your pure self
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Does the universe have a memory? Yes it does! Otherwise there is no way to explain how the laws of physics are implicitly encoded into it.
 
Mere Dreamer said:
The avatar is conscious of itself and the tangible world. It can become aware that its consciousness is an extension of the higher self, and when that happens the consciousness can bring additional knowledge to the life that will enable it to progress more quickly.
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What sort of tangible evidence led you to such a certainty that additional knowledge is provided? What do you mean by 'additional knowledge', exactly, and how was it received? Dream? Inspiration? Voice in the head? Intuition? Meaningful signs or synchronicities? Something eelse?
 
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