Survival of Bodily Death

[Nightrain]

I just discovered an interesting link here, at which 20 renowned Scientists have declared their dedication to the scientific research of paranormal phenomenon, which proves the survival of bodily death. I think, if anyone wants to google each name and institution, they'll find a great deal of new information, which altogether will provide a strong scientific argument for the immortality of the soul.

Another link by Victor Zammit, "A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife", lists many more people, who have contributed valuable research involving the paranormal, here.

Yet another very interesting and fairly complete list, "Scientific support for Evidence based mediumship, life after physical death and after death communication" can be found here. It really is astounding that so many sources can be found, which provide evidence of not only life after death, but of reincarnation as well. If each source was to be examined alone, there might be just a little cause for skepticism. However, when one combines all of these sources together, there should be no sane reason to remain skeptical.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi John,


Those who still argument against spirituality and reincarnation, only do so through lack of information and knowledge of all the facts. If they had the opportunity to read through this forum, even if just for once, they would find ample evidence to reinforce it.


Charles

 

[Jody]

Thanks for the links, John!


The way I see it, if you believe in Quantum Theory, which clearly establishes that consciousness has a direct influence on the outcome of an experiment, how can you believe that consciousness is limited to our physical bodies?

 

[Nightrain]

Quantum Theory, which clearly establishes that consciousness has a direct influence on the outcome of an experiment, how can you believe that consciousness is limited to our physical bodies?

Hi Jody! I realize that your question may be rhetorical; but the skeptics contend that quantum physics only applies to small things at the atomic level. However, there was a recent experiment here, that demonstrated a quantum effect that could be seen by the unaided eye.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi to both of you.


So consequently "Consciousness" has to be more than just the result of electro-chemical discharges of the human brain, or how would such an interaction take place? The question is: What kind of "energy" is "thought"?


To me, Consciousness and Soul are one and the same thing. It is possibly the Creative Force of the Universe. That which makes the Super strings vibrate to form particles. Hence the "collapsing" of quantum waves into particles when there is the intent of observation on our part.


How is it that creatures evolve into such wondrous forms when they effectively transform their bodies to better adapt to their environment if not by consciously perceiving the need for change and consequently "creating" such changes?


At a larger, universal scale, could such a Creation of all things be the result of the "Universal Consciousness" that we refer to as God?


In my view, each and every one of us, as individual Conscious Beings, is an individualization of the Universal Consciousness. When the Bible says that "we were created in His image and resemblance", it certainly could not mean in physical form, but as Conscious Beings, and consequently as co-creators, at a micro-cosmic level, of the universe that surrounds us...


:thumbsup:

 

[Florence]

Hi Charles


You stated that very well and it is exactly what I believe. Thought creates. God is a super consciousness and we are also a spark of that. As we reincarnate we expand our own consciousness until we become part of it all. Each life is only a day in the life of your soul. As we become more aware we become more spiritual until finally we are pure spirit and join God....I think....grin....

 

[Charles Stuart]

Florence, my love, forgive me for not replying sooner but in truth I felt I should just leave my computer aside for a couple of days... You have no idea just quite how much such debates, when they reach certain stages, drain the living daylight out of me...


Here I can say this: I am a medium myself, and I do know what I felt/feel during an incorporation process, enough to know that t is not some kind of "ideomotor mental conditioning reflex", but a very real and tangible phenomena.


I agree entirely with what you have said above, just as long as when you say that we "join with God" this does not imply in any loss of personal identity. We are all immortal, indestructible and infinite beings...


Lovely to hear from you again...


Charles

 

[stardis]

Here is a link to an interesting article about death and dying at CNN living - be sure to check out some of the links in the article for more interesting reading.

 

[Florence]

Hello Charles....I went over to that forum and read all of the posts. I thought you were wonderful. You stayed calm, cool and collected in spite of those guys going off in all directions repeating the same tired old remarks. You would try to bring them back on point and off they would go again ....


Actually it was a wonderful display of the kinds of responses that accompany any talk of spirit or things that cannot be seen. If any of those men claim to be a scientist.....he is NOT. A true scientist investigates everything with an open attitude. He neither believes or disbelieves...


Today.....the last 50 years...so much has been discovered....how could anyone believe we know it all. They are inventing products to allow us to talk to the other side...at least to the side that is nearest. On some of those TV programs you see that they can now see forms that the human eye cannot....using a special camera.


It amazes me how many spirits seem to be hanging around what was most familiar in life. Gosh....I hope I don't


Yes.....God is all superconscious spirit....not a personality....a personality is a soul....a soul is not pure...a spirit IS pure...That's what I believe

 

[dlorde]

The way I see it, if you believe in Quantum Theory

At this point, it's hard not to believe in quantum theory - weird though it is, it's the most successful and best-tested scientific theory ever, and is the basis of modern electronics.

... which clearly establishes that consciousness has a direct influence on the outcome of an experiment

Not quite - it's not consciousness per se that influences the outcome of an experiment, but the way you decide to do the measurement. You get the same strange results if you set up a machine to do the experiment for you (in physics, an 'observer' can be anything that interacts with system involved - usually a subatomic particle, a photon, an atom or a molecule).

how can you believe that consciousness is limited to our physical bodies?

Supporting evidence that consciousness is intimately related to, and dependent on the physical body, is that when the brain is damaged in various ways, consciousness may be damaged in various ways. Dr. Oliver Sacks has written several very readable books on this theme, including the famous "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat".

 

[dlorde]

... the skeptics contend that quantum physics only applies to small things at the atomic level. However, there was a recent experiment here, that demonstrated a quantum effect that could be seen by the unaided eye.

Not all sceptics are as well-informed about quantum physics as they should be


Quantum physics applies to all scales, but specifically quantum effects are usually only noticeable at very small scales because quantum superpositions and entanglements are generally lost in the interactions between particles at the small scale, and the effects get statistically averaged out at larger scales into the behaviours of 'normal' physics (e.g. statistical mechanics). However there are various other amazing macro-scale examples of quantum effects, such as Bose-Einstein Condensates and superfluidity (e.g. Helium-4).


In general, it is extremely difficult to set things up so that such quantum effects persist and are observable at macro-scales, so be equally wary of speculatively associating quantum effects with unusual macro-scale phenomena outside strictly designed and controlled lab environments.

 

[Florence]

Hi diorde....I agree with you that consciousness is connected to the physical body. I also agree that it can be affected by physical health, lack of sleep etc.


Edgar Cayce explained that if he did not get proper rest or keep a balance between work and play his readin were not as accurate.


It is too bad that more scientists have not looked into the out of body experiences that soo many people have reported. I would say those cases number in the hundreds.


I don't believe the average person can go out of body at will....I believe it happens most often during stress...such as an accident or surgery so I suppose it would be almost impossible to do a test.


Cayce did it every day and still people don't believe. Well, I do....I believe the consciousness can leave the body while still being connected...


If the brain is damaged I suppose it could go either way......

 

[Aqualung]

I just discovered an interesting link here, at which 20 renowned Scientists have declared their dedication to the scientific research of paranormal phenomenon, which proves the survival of bodily death.

Erm, no, it doesn't.


Firstly, even if these were twenty renowned scientists, it would not prove that consciousness persists after death. It would simply prove that those twenty scientists thought that it did.


Secondly, these are not "renowned" scientists. They are quite the opposite, in fact. They have been paranormal believers for quite some time, and have a reputation for pushing their beliefs despite a lack of scientific evidence. William Braud, for instance, maintains this site, which isn't exactly a great wealth of evidence, and I can find absolutely no mention of him on any site that isn't clearly biased in favor of psi.

It really is astounding that so many sources can be found, which provide evidence of not only life after death, but of reincarnation as well. If each source was to be examined alone, there might be just a little cause for skepticism. However, when one combines all of these sources together, there should be no sane reason to remain skeptical.

I disagree.


I realize, of course, that I have standards of evidence which differ wildly from those held by the majority of members on this site (with the exception of Garrette and dlorde and Gao). But my skepticism is not denial in any way, and I do not find the linked sites convincing.

It is too bad that more scientists have not looked into the out of body experiences that soo many people have reported. I would say those cases number in the hundreds.

They have been investigated. Multiple times, by multiple teams in multiple places. Every study has turned up nothing.

Cayce did it every day and still people don't believe.

Because Cayce's experiences were never proven to be out-of-body experiences.


EDIT: Once again, I'd like to remind you that I am not trying to belittle or insult anyone, just to offer a differing opinion. Like Garrette, though, I am usually direct and do not use smilies, so please just keep this in mind while reading my posts.

 

[ChrisR]

Hi Aqualung

Secondly, these are not "renowned" scientists. They are quite the opposite, in fact. They have been paranormal believers for quite some time, and have a reputation for pushing their beliefs despite a lack of scientific evidence.

You give me the impression that you feel it's ok to express "scientific" belief, but it's not ok to express "personal" belief because there's no scientific evidence to back it up, why is this? Is everything that we can't explain non-existant until a scientific explanation can be found?

They have been investigated. Multiple times, by multiple teams in multiple places. Every study has turned up nothing.

.... except for those of us who have actually experienced it! As Tinkerman stated in the other thread, how do you describe what an apple tastes like to somebody who has never tasted an apple?

 

[Aqualung]

Hi Aqualung

Secondly, these are not "renowned" scientists. They are quite the opposite, in fact. They have been paranormal believers for quite some time, and have a reputation for pushing their beliefs despite a lack of scientific evidence.

You give me the impression that you feel it's ok to express "scientific" belief, but it's not ok to express "personal" belief because there's no scientific evidence to back it up, why is this?

Not at all. It's fine to express personal belief. However, to express personal belief as scientific belief in the absence of scientific proof for said belief is fallacious.


I object to these people attempting to say that their personal beliefs are scientific when they are not, not to them holding the beliefs.

Is everything that we can't explain non-existant until a scientific explanation can be found?

No, and I don't see how you got that from my post.

.... except for those of us who have actually experienced it!

And that's the issue right there, isn't it? The only "studies" that have yielded positive results are those performed by those who already believe that they will yield results. This is called confirmation bias.


If you have a specific study that you think proves otherwise, though, I'm all ears.

As Tinkerman stated in the other thread, how do you describe what an apple tastes like to somebody who has never tasted an apple?

How you describe it is irrelevant to whether or not the apple has a flavor. If there is such a thing as out-of-body experience, it can be proven to exist. The explanation for it is irrelevant to whether or not it does.

 

[dlorde]

It is too bad that more scientists have not looked into the out of body experiences that soo many people have reported. I would say those cases number in the hundreds.
I don't believe the average person can go out of body at will....I believe it happens most often during stress...such as an accident or surgery so I suppose it would be almost impossible to do a test.

Well we're in luck - in 2008, the Human Consciousness Project launched the Aware study (AWAreness during REsuscitation) to look at the experiences reported by hospital patients during cardiac arrest, etc. As well as studying reported high levels of consciousness when there was no measurable brain activity, they are also looking at OBEs at this time, and have set up hidden images only visible from above (the reported viewpoint of many OBEs) to check whether the OBE perception is external (objectively real) or internally generated.


This is the largest such study ever attempted, and will involve more than 25 major hospitals in Europe and North America, and the many doctors & scientists involved have impeccable credentials. Even if these events are relatively rare (and the study would not have been undertaken if awareness/OBE reports were not frequent among the CPR patients), we should soon be getting solid and reliable evidence to evaluate.


The results won't be published until the end of the year or early next year, so hang onto your hat!


I for one really hope that they spent enough skill and care on the experimental design and protocols. If this study turns out to be a damp squib from people finding holes in the design, protocols, or analysis, I doubt we'll see another one of this size for many years.

 

[Florence]

Hi Diorde....Your a sweetheart to tell me that....It pleases me very much. I believe it is a difficult thing to actually prove....I hope the teams of people who are evaluating the evidence are not leaning in either direction..neither for or against. Let the chips fall where they may is my view of open mindedness.


Things of the spirit are almost impossible to prove Poor Cayce could not prove he traveled out of body because we couldn't see him go...So if in fact he did NOT go....what about the remarkable statements he made in regard to health when he was in trance...What working of the mind created this kind of information when he was a photographer and not a doctor.


I personally do not believe that we know beans about how the mind (brain?) works


I have experienced many very strange happenings in this life....no one can explain seeing a ghost or spirit... It can't be explained either way. I cannot prove to anyone that I did...and no one can prove that I didn't.... it becomes very frustrating from this side too....


Have any of you guys read the story of The 911 Baby by Baby rn. I wish you would. I believe he was only 3 when he began telling his mother he was a fireman. It will fascinate you...and...even if you do not believe he is reincarnated....Where does all of this information come from.???

 

[dlorde]

Hi Diorde....Your a sweetheart to tell me that....It pleases me very much. I believe it is a difficult thing to actually prove....I hope the teams of people who are evaluating the evidence are not leaning in either direction..neither for or against. Let the chips fall where they may is my view of open mindedness.

Yes, let's hope so. With luck, they're doing it purely out of curiosity.

... Where does all of this information come from.???

That's what we'd all like to know!

 

[Florence]

To me....that makes a true scientist...


CURIOSITY !!! and an independent mind...


I would say that you guys Gao, Aqualung, Garrette and yourelf have those qualities because your interested enough to be over here for more than a few minutes.. I thank you for that....

 

[Aqualung]

what about the remarkable statements he made in regard to health when he was in trance...What working of the mind created this kind of information when he was a photographer and not a doctor.

I confess that I'm ignorant of many of the things about Cayce's... erm... case. What exactly is he supposed to have said?

Have any of you guys read the story of The 911 Baby by Baby rn. I wish you would.

I will, when I get a chance. I assume that you're talking about the thread on this forum?

even if you do not believe he is reincarnated....Where does all of this information come from.???

Depends on the person and case.

 

[Lawyer Daggett]

Thanks for the list. I have previously seen some of E Harraldsson of Iceland's research, which is of good quality. It will be interesting to check out some of these other leads.


I agree with you, as an Attorney I am naturally a very skeptical beast. To me there is such a volume of evidence out there regarding past lives that we are well beyond considering merely a 'reasonable hypothesis'. Of course, scientific proof is elusive and will probably never happen.

 

[Florence]

There are many books that have been written about Edgar Cayce. At one time I owned 21 of them but loaned them out and didn't always get them back.


One book I bought 3 times...grin...


A good book about him that covers his whole life was written by a newspaper man, turned author, Jessie Stern. The books title is "Edgar Cayce The Sleeping Prophet". People who wrote about him picked out different topics and devoted the whole book to that subject.....religion....health and healing....reincarnation....astrology..


.


Sterns book covers Cayce's early life and his desire to be a photographer and how he was drawn in to becoming a prophet. He didn't believe in reincarnation and taught Sunday school. He was shocked to come out of trance and to realize what he had said. He had no memory of what transpired during a trance and because of things done to him during a trance he only allowed his wife and faithful secretary to ask him questions. ( He once woke up in terrible pain because a nonbeliever had


pulled off one of his finger nails...he had also been stuck with pins)


You can also just google his name and a dozen or more sites will pop up...


Edgar Cayce Research Center is down in Virginia Beach. The ARE building is filled with micro tapes of Cayce's readings and are researched by many many doctors reading what Cayce had to say about so many many diseases. The percentage of people that Cayce was able to cure is above 80%....He was quite remarkable


In life Cayce had very little material wealth and I often wonder, if he could look down from above, what he would think of soo many people makng money off of his good works and his name. He passed away in 1946.