Karma of world leaders, billionaires, celebrities who "have it all" in one life

[JustinTime]

Do the billionaires, world leaders, and celebrities who literally "have it all" in one life have "pay" for their experiences in subsequent or previous lives? I.e., does the billionaire or world leader who literally lives a life where every desire is satisfied (money, power, health) have to "pay" for this by picking extremely difficult lives such as a street beggar, a disabled, or other tragic circumstances in other lives? What is the karmic ties that allows a person to be born into a life where he is a world leader or billionaire or sports celebrity in the first place?

Can any soul during the reincarnation process plan these lives of wealth and power, or is there some type of contract that the soul acknowledges that says that should it choose one life of extravagant wealth or power or influence, it will have to "pay for that" in subsequent lives?

 

[Eowyn]

Karma doesn't exist, so no one has to pay for anything, and that includes billionaires. Now, life and reincarnation give you infinite possibilities of living different lives, so why should we stick to just one way of life? Isn't it more logical to choose always different circumstances so that we can gain as much experience as possible?

 

[KenJ]

I recently read of a different meaning for Karma than I understood before. The idea was that it was more the remainder of the goals of your life-plan that you have not yet accomplished - I personally felt more comfortable with that.

Another thing that I wanted to add here is that I have been blessed to have known people at quit a few levels of the continuum from deprivation to excess in various measures. There are things to be learned at every level, and both happiness and unhappiness exist throughout - those you think "have it all" often don't - the challenges are just different. Don't waste your time with envy of those you think have more than you, it is a difficult for the ego to distinguish between need and want without considering the potential downside. As for "wealth and power", the extremes that come to mind of people I've known are a woman whose parents gave her to a man, when she was thirteen, in exchange for a cow so that their family had milk to drink because they were so poor they were eating bark from trees, and at the other end is a man who owns/built a Corporation that employs more than three-hundred-thousand people worldwide. Both of these people found sorrow, joy, and love in this lifetime, just in different ways.

 

[baro-san]

I believe that karma is a balancing force that doesn't overlook anything: thoughts, desires, actions, and their consequences. If you act with good intentions but your actions affect negatively, you still draw bad karmic traces that will have to be balanced, because ignorance is an explanation, not an excuse.

As Ken said, the wealth level is no guarantee of happiness, neither poverty of unhappiness. This applies to everything: health, beauty, age, etc..

We all started, eons ago, from blissful ignorance, and here we are.

 

[Cassie]

Like a few here, I don't really believe in the grand Karmic scheme, only the Karma we create on earth where we reward the good and punish the bad ourselves.
(well we should do that, but the 'human rights' concept is super twisted).
I believe people are either lucky or not, driven to achieve/survive or not.

I like to think the Universe is against negative energy, and that it creates us with our individual notions of 'right and wrong' in order to promote the removal of it.
But it's so primal and raw out there in the void that energy just... moves, from one place to another. Negative energy doesn't get 'punished' it just gets dispersed, because it isn't 'growth'.

Unfortunately I don't think a rich man will come back a pauper because he spends his money unjustly, just the same as an abused child wont settle into the next life with a loving family because he was brutalized by the last one. Every experience is open to us and it's up to us what we learn from it, and whether or not we contribute to the Universe's understanding of itself.

 

[JustinTime]

I recently read of a different meaning for Karma than I understood before. The idea was that it was more the remainder of the goals of your life-plan that you have not yet accomplished - I personally felt more comfortable with that.

Another thing that I wanted to add here is that I have been blessed to have known people at quit a few levels of the continuum from deprivation to excess in various measures. There are things to be learned at every level, and both happiness and unhappiness exist throughout - those you think "have it all" often don't - the challenges are just different. Don't waste your time with envy of those you think have more than you, it is a difficult for the ego to distinguish between need and want without considering the potential downside. As for "wealth and power", the extremes that come to mind of people I've known are a woman whose parents gave her to a man, when she was thirteen, in exchange for a cow so that their family had milk to drink because they were so poor they were eating bark from trees, and at the other end is a man who owns/built a Corporation that employs more than three-hundred-thousand people worldwide. Both of these people found sorrow, joy, and love in this lifetime, just in different ways.

Ken, but what determines one's "remainder of the goals of one's life-plan"? What determines whether one's life plan is to be the king of the rock and rule a nation, or whether one's life plan is to be a beggar with no chance of living under one's own roof? Your point is well taken, but it still assumes the existence of some type of life plan for everyone. What determines whether one's plan is to be powerful and wealthy (like Putin) or to lead a tragic life (disabled, blind, deaf, family abuse, rape, etc ...)? Something still has to determine this. Do you think it's random or is it based on past actions in past lives (if they exist)?

A couple of replies also hints that the people who appear to "have it all" on the surface still suffer their own misfortunes. That is true, but it sidesteps the premise of my original question: even if everyone suffers, the degree of suffering, on average, is vastly different between individuals. There is no question that the very wealthy person does not suffer as much as the person who gets hit with tragedy after tragedy and cannot get a lucky break, can't find a job, loses a spouse, gets raped, etc... To tell me that someone like Donald Trump or George Soros suffers just as much as a displaced, poor minority in a ghetto in Detroit sounds a bit ridiculous to me. I'm sure people like Trump or Soros have their own woes, but what is it that allows them to plan a life like the ones they have? And what is it that "forces" beggars and poor people to have to experience poverty?

 

[KenJ]

Ken, but what determines one's "remainder of the goals of one's life-plan"?

JustinTime, I guess I did not state my message well, the time period of the life-plan I was talking about was the one before birth rather than the one the human-ego wants.

And what is it that "forces" beggars and poor people to have to experience poverty?

Again, your life-plan before birth would be a primary factor if I understand the ideas about reincarnation correctly, an existance that fits their purpose. But, what I can tell you about people's perception of personal tragedy is that it is remarkably close to being the same regardless of the actual damage, just as the extent of joyful feelings or feelings of accomplishment perhaps are close to the same among socioeconomic or physical ability levels. But in a sense we are comparing apples to oranges since it gets complicated with wants vs. needs and physical vs. mental/spiritual.

If indeed we are to have all kinds of experiences in our incarnations, would it really help to level out everyone's earth-life so they were the same? Earth-life is more a theater with actors than something that needs a script-change in my opinion. I don't think we should complain about the parts that others play without considering their importance to the overall performance that is taking place. Add light and love to help as much as possible, but allow leeway for life-plans to be enacted.

 

[JustinTime]

JustinTime, I guess I did not state my message well, the time period of the life-plan I was talking about was the one before birth rather than the one the human-ego wants.

Again, your life-plan before birth would be a primary factor if I understand the ideas about reincarnation correctly, an existance that fits their purpose. But, what I can tell you about people's perception of personal tragedy is that it is remarkably close to being the same regardless of the actual damage, just as the extent of joyful feelings or feelings of accomplishment perhaps are close to the same among socioeconomic or physical ability levels. But in a sense we are comparing apples to oranges since it gets complicated with wants vs. needs and physical vs. mental/spiritual.

If indeed we are to have all kinds of experiences in our incarnations, would it really help to level out everyone's earth-life so they were the same? Earth-life is more a theater with actors than something that needs a script-change in my opinion. I don't think we should complain about the parts that others play without considering their importance to the overall performance that is taking place. Add light and love to help as much as possible, but allow leeway for life-plans to be enacted.

Ken, your point is well taken, but I'm not suggesting we "level out everyone's earth-life so they were the same". This is clearly not possible. However, what I am curious about, is if this is a theater with actors, then if a soul gets to play the role of a king in one life and enjoy all the earthly riches, then it doesn't make sense for that same soul to experience it all again in another life - that soul had its chance and its time for another soul to get their chance at being the "king" (or substitute whatever you like to call for money/power/fame). I'm not saying every person should have the same life experiences at the same time, but I do think souls that were forced to play the role of "beggar" in one life SHOULD get the right to play the role of "prince" in another life (call it another stage play, if you will). Otherwise, you would have some souls getting to experience only material goodness again and again and others only get to experience physical suffering again and again, which clearly doesn't feel balanced nor right.

 

[KenJ]

Justin, the word you made bold leads to the question of whether there actually is such a thing as SHOULD at a higher level and/or its relevance. However, before we "Yes, but..." each other endlessly, rethink your statements and consider that what you think is the "right way" may not be exactly what is happening in your examples of the current "rich and powerful", maybe those people that appear to "have it all" were among the downtrodden many times before, perhaps we replay a particular part because we play it so well! It would seem to me that repeated reincarnation experiences would probably be similar to repeated experiences in a single lifetime either from habit or need of some kind. I personally do not think we can know those answers unless we knew what we set out to learn/test/experience in a particular lifetime and also knew the agreements we made with others as to what part we would play.

The other point, about diversity, is that you can not appreciate anything without the existence/experience of its opposite, but you already know that, I just wanted to inject it into your thought-stream.

One of the pages I marked in "Flipside" was when the author recalled filming one of Micheal Newton's seven-thousand regressions where the spirit explained that it was far harder to play the part of a Nazi "bad guy" than a Holocaust "victim", he said that his head shot up from behind his viewfinder and he could not believe what he just heard. In another filmed regression, a father who had played the villain in a woman's life told her how hard it was to play that part that they had agreed for "him" to play - perhaps understanding it this way might detract from the experience we contracted for - it is indeed a fascinating puzzle. It seems there are numerous ways of learning the same lesson with them happening in different sequences, ages, and extremes.

Do you have memories of a past life?

 

[baro-san]

"I think everybody should get rich and famous and get everything they dreamed, so they can see that's not the answer." - Jim Carrey ( you can listen to a JC interview on youtube)

 

[somesurrealkid]

"I think everybody should get rich and famous and get everything they dreamed, so they can see that's not the answer." - Jim Carrey ( you can listen to a JC interview on youtube)

This is definitely along the lines of what I would say.
Even if the person is famous and seems to have it all, they could be paying for it within their life.
It's isolating, dehumanizing, overwhelming, and stressful to be famous. It's having all eyes on you and not being able to do anything right. It's being pressured to be completely consistant with yourself day and night. It's having your (often awkwardly constructed) words represent whole groups of people.
It sucks, to be honest.
You can't just DO things. You have to keep up appearances or you're seen as a failure.
Money can't buy back freedom from criticism.
Famous people, I think, don't need any more karma than they get already in their lives.

 

[JustinTime]

This is definitely along the lines of what I would say.
Even if the person is famous and seems to have it all, they could be paying for it within their life.
It's isolating, dehumanizing, overwhelming, and stressful to be famous. It's having all eyes on you and not being able to do anything right. It's being pressured to be completely consistant with yourself day and night. It's having your (often awkwardly constructed) words represent whole groups of people.
It sucks, to be honest.
You can't just DO things. You have to keep up appearances or you're seen as a failure.
Money can't buy back freedom from criticism.
Famous people, I think, don't need any more karma than they get already in their lives.

I totally disagree with this here. I'd, and most people, would rather be rich (at least enough wealth to not worry about finding or begging for a job my entire life) than to be poor. The stress that comes with being poor is FAR higher than the stress that comes with being rich. The rich people I know, while they could still have their own problems, generally do NOT have as much issues as the poor folks I know. I think it's silly to say that somehow the billionaires and celebrities or even extremely wealth low-profile people have equal or more suffering than less fortunate people, that's simply NOT true.

 

[baro-san]

I totally disagree with this here. I'd, and most people, would rather be rich (at least enough wealth to not worry about finding or begging for a job my entire life) than to be poor. The stress that comes with being poor is FAR higher than the stress that comes with being rich. The rich people I know, while they could still have their own problems, generally do NOT have as much issues as the poor folks I know. I think it's silly to say that somehow the billionaires and celebrities or even extremely wealth low-profile people have equal or more suffering than less fortunate people, that's simply NOT true.

So, why aren't you rich? Probably this was your choice when you decided to incarnate as "Justine Time". If you planned to be rich, and you aren't that means that you haven't yet learned what you are supposed to, and the Universe will constrain you until you'll get with the program.

The meaning of JC's quote is that "money and celebrity won't make you happy".

 

[JustinTime]

So, why aren't you rich? Probably this was your choice when you decided to incarnate as "Justine Time". If you planned to be rich, and you aren't that means that you haven't yet learned what you are supposed to, and the Universe will constrain you until you'll get with the program.

The meaning of JC's quote is that "money and celebrity won't make you happy".

I have no idea what I'm supposed to learn.

Money and celebrity might not make you happy, but I'd rather life's issues with more money than less money, all else equal.

Money doesn't equal happiness but not having money and self respect doesn't equal happiness either. It's just an excuse made up by poor people to comfort themselves.

 

[Eowyn]

Interesting conversation here...

I think you guys are missing one important point here. It happens when you try to look for a spiritual meaning in everything we do here. I strongly believe that LEARNING is not the only purpose we have when we reincarnate. Just relax a bit! Life is sh*t, that's one of the greatest truths. How many poor people are there in the world? Clearly, many more than celebrities and rich people. Odds are that in our next life we'll be in the side of the poor again. So, it's NOT a matter of balance, it's not a matter of which role I have to play now and change it every now and then. We may have some plans before we reincarnate, but life is not only the result of those plans, it's the result of the circumstances we were born in, our decisions, the opportunities to change we get in life (because no, we can't create those opportunities out of nothing), the way we manage those opportunities depending on many factors such as our will or our necessity or our preferences, etc., and yes, a great deal of luck.

I also think that as souls we have a responsibility. Our individual choices and paths, what we personally gain through our incarnation, is important, but we live on Earth with millions of other people. Maybe the only thing one has to learn from being poor is that life is sh*t and you can work in the future for making the planet a better place to live in. Maybe someone becomes rich to use their money for good purposes, driven by their former unconscious past life experiences, or maybe just because they grew up in a poor environment and now they have the power to do something about it. As always, there are no absolute good and bad in each circumstance. It's up to each of us to make the best of our own circumstances.

In a way, I think it's the same with other matters, as peace and war. Probably we all have to live a war so that we become pacifists in our next life, because now we know how horrible a war is. But even when we know that, we might get involved in more wars, because each life is different, different circumstances can lead to the same end, and because unfortunately many people in the world keep participating in such wars. So, yes, it's a matter of learning, but it can also be a matter of other things, as teaching others to find their strength, for example, or just experiencing the same thing just to see if this time you can handle it better.

 

[cgaman]

Lol.

Nobody has it all.

Bill Gates is the richest man in the world.

He has his own Caribbean island.

But, does it have a runway long enough to land a full blown jumbo aircraft?

China's artificial islands in the South China Sea will put any billionaire to shame.

OK. Not enough?

Bill Gates could probably assemble a pretty fast billion dollar super computer.

Know which country will launch a quantum computer in 10 years that will solve problems in 0.01 secs what Mr. Gates' billion dollar super comp would need to perform continuously for 100 years?

What I'm trying to say is at the macro level, the types of karma the ppl in the thread title possess are probably insignificant...

ie. You're the richest man on Earth, but did you build a magnificent artificial island in your lifetime?

ie. You're the richest man on Earth, but have you ever owned a computer almost as fast as God?

ie. You're the richest man on Earth, but have you ever lived on the moon for a few weeks?

 

[JustinTime]

Lol.

Nobody has it all.

Bill Gates is the richest man in the world.

He has his own Caribbean island.

But, does it have a runway long enough to land a full blown jumbo aircraft?

China's artificial islands in the South China Sea will put any billionaire to shame.

OK. Not enough?

Bill Gates could probably assemble a pretty fast billion dollar super computer.

Know which country will launch a quantum computer in 10 years that will solve problems in 0.01 secs what Mr. Gates' billion dollar super comp would need to perform continuously for 100 years?

What I'm trying to say is at the macro level, the types of karma the ppl in the thread title possess are probably insignificant...

ie. You're the richest man on Earth, but did you build a magnificent artificial island in your lifetime?

ie. You're the richest man on Earth, but have you ever owned a computer almost as fast as God?

ie. You're the richest man on Earth, but have you ever lived on the moon for a few weeks?

cgaman, thanks for your post, but what you've said is entirely a straw man argument. I never said that the rich people have everything in this world, or they can easily solve "god-like" problems. But in spite of everything you said, there is no argument that wealthy people, on average, have way more fulfilling lives, or at least has the chance to live a better life, than poor people. If rich people can't solve those problems you said, then poor people can't solve them either, but all else equal, I'd rather be rich than poor every single time I incarnate. Every single time. I see zero value in being poor for the sake of "experiencing what it's like to be poor". If you're interested, you can go ahead, but I'll pass. I want an easy, smooth, rich, wealthy, abundant life, and I think most people would.

Come on, do you really want to say that you'd prefer to live a life as a poor beggar just because rich people "don't have it all"? They may not have it all, but they have more than poor people. That's what matters.

 

[cgaman]

cgaman, thanks for your post, but what you've said is entirely a straw man argument. I never said that the rich people have everything in this world, or they can easily solve "god-like" problems. But in spite of everything you said, there is no argument that wealthy people, on average, have way more fulfilling lives, or at least has the chance to live a better life, than poor people. If rich people can't solve those problems you said, then poor people can't solve them either, but all else equal, I'd rather be rich than poor every single time I incarnate. Every single time. I see zero value in being poor for the sake of "experiencing what it's like to be poor". If you're interested, you can go ahead, but I'll pass. I want an easy, smooth, rich, wealthy, abundant life, and I think most people would.

Come on, do you really want to say that you'd prefer to live a life as a poor beggar just because rich people "don't have it all"? They may not have it all, but they have more than poor people. That's what matters.

cgaman, thanks for your post, but what you've said is entirely a straw man argument. I never said that the rich people have everything in this world, or they can easily solve "god-like" problems. But in spite of everything you said, there is no argument that wealthy people, on average, have way more fulfilling lives, or at least has the chance to live a better life, than poor people. If rich people can't solve those problems you said, then poor people can't solve them either, but all else equal, I'd rather be rich than poor every single time I incarnate. Every single time. I see zero value in being poor for the sake of "experiencing what it's like to be poor". If you're interested, you can go ahead, but I'll pass. I want an easy, smooth, rich, wealthy, abundant life, and I think most people would.

Come on, do you really want to say that you'd prefer to live a life as a poor beggar just because rich people "don't have it all"? They may not have it all, but they have more than poor people. That's what matters.

"Supposing that gain is godliness... from this withdraw thyself" (from the Bible)

Personally, I think that your viewpoint on what consists of being rich is all wrong.

Let me give you my real life example:

I started using Windows 10+Android dual OS tablets ever since they became real cheap on eBay.

My current collection:

#1. 8" 800p Bay Trail - $80
#2. 8" 1200p Cherry Trail (next gen after Bay Trail) - $110
#2. 8.9" 1200p Cherry Trail - $120

Of course this is just tablets, but you can apply the same to cars, clothes, vacations, etc.

BUT...

Criterium: Free usable space

#1. 12GB
#2. 6GB
#3. 5GB

Criterium: Display quality (higher is better)

#1. 2
#2. 3
#3. 1

Criterium: Relative speed (higher is better)

#1. 100
#2. 50
#3. 75


RESULT:

Know which tablet I'm impressed with the most? The cheapest one

The next cheapest had the best looking screen, but performs like a snail.

The most expensive had the least free space and a screen with off-puttingly fugly colors.


MY POINT:

Luxury items are the most 2nd / 3rd rate products on the market meant for wealthy ppl

The poor man really gets the best in life


ALSO:

It is said that the Devil prefers a luxurious home

The Devil is only second rate next to God.


To live a wealthy life is to live a 2nd / 3rd rate life...

 

[Jim78]

Wealth, fame and/or success can be a faustian pact. The more you own the more you can be owned in my experience. Foregoing wealth, fame or success in favour of ones moral values can be empowering imo. I think this because I've dealt with people on every level of society. I never assume that a rich person has a more charmed life than me. Every persons pain is unique to them after all.

 

[JustinTime]

Wealth, fame and/or success can be a faustian pact. The more you own the more you can be owned in my experience. Foregoing wealth, fame or success in favour of ones moral values can be empowering imo. I think this because I've dealt with people on every level of society. I never assume that a rich person has a more charmed life than me. Every persons pain is unique to them after all.

That's because, in all honesty, you are still living a very decent life compared to the ones who have far less than you. You just don't appreciate how much you have, and how much worse your life could be if those things were taken away.

I'm not talking about Bill Gates level rich. That's an extreme. But what about those people who have $10-50 million, have great families, awesome spouses, travel the world, without experiencing any type of discrimination or pressure to find work or fear that they won't have food the next day?

IMO, those are great lives. There's no doubt they live better lives than poor people stuck in ghettos with no access to education through no fault of their own.

There's no doubt they live better lives than people who are minorities who are discriminated against in every aspect of life through no fault of their own.

I'd like to think people who get lucky enough to be born into these situations where they aren't super rich, but are wealthy enough to never worry about work and can travel the world, go on dates, enjoy all the best life has to offer - these people have great lives. What can I do in this life so my next life is like this? Should i volunteer at children's hospitals and give money to the homeless on the street? Shall I volunteer at soup kitchens or animal shelters?

What can I do to make sure my next birth is like this?

 

[baro-san]

...

What can I do to make sure my next birth is like this?

I guess, you might already do what you need doing: envy those rich guys. The Universe will oblige: show you what means to be rich. Unfortunately, this you will be dead and forgotten by then.

The other choice: get rich now!

 

[Jim78]

That's because, in all honesty, you are still living a very decent life compared to the ones who have far less than you. You just don't appreciate how much you have, and how much worse your life could be if those things were taken away.

I'm not talking about Bill Gates level rich. That's an extreme. But what about those people who have $10-50 million, have great families, awesome spouses, travel the world, without experiencing any type of discrimination or pressure to find work or fea. I pr that they won't have food the next day?

IMO, those are great lives. There's no doubt they live better lives than poor people stuck in ghettos with no access to education through no fault of their own.

There's no doubt they live better lives than people who are minorities who are discriminated against in every aspect of life through no fault of their own.

I'd like to think people who get lucky enough to be born into these situations where they aren't super rich, but are wealthy enough to never worry about work and can travel the world, go on dates, enjoy all the best life has to offer - these people have great lives. What can I do in this life so my next life is like this? Should i volunteer at children's hospitals and give money to the homeless on the street? Shall I volunteer at soup kitchens or animal shelters?

What can I do to make sure my next birth is like this?

I wasn't living a decent life for years. I was homeless during my countries economic boom and in and out of prison for refusing to give up the fight against a sociopath who wanted me ruined ( they LOVE manipulating the system for their own ends ) and I can tell you that I know of rich people who have seemed to have lived a more hellish existence than I ever lived. Of course there's third world countries and such where people had it worse than me which is why I said fame, wealth and/or success CAN be a faustian pact. Obviously there are rich people who are leading a charmed life but it's not my job to assume that they are having it better than me. My brothers a gambler and I resented that I had to take on more problems and more responsibilities than him. I wished I only had a gambling problem to worry about. The truth is though his problem leaves him in much despair. I do judge and measure others pain against myself when I'm suffering but who am I to say that their suffering is less than mine in reality? My brothers issue leaves him on his back and that's just one issue. His problem is enough for him to handle. My problems are enough for me to handle. A life's narrative seems to be tailored so that the individual can learn what they need to learn. I personally don't think I will 'earn' a charmed life in my next incarnation by being a saint in this one. I believe if I am mean't to lead a charmed life the next time that's only so that I can learn a new set of lessons. That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Eowyn]

What can I do in this life so my next life is like this? Should i volunteer at children's hospitals and give money to the homeless on the street? Shall I volunteer at soup kitchens or animal shelters?

Karma doesn't exist, as I said above. That means it doesn't work as a reward system either. So, as Jim78 says, there is nothing you can do to have the life you want the next time you reincarnate. It's my belief that we all live each life independently. If you are coming back to planet Earth, as it is in this century, you already know what you'll find: mostly greedy people only thinking about themselves, destroying the environment, never thinking about the future of their children. So, maybe the best thing you can do is grow and accept this. And if you don't like it, work now to change it.

 

[JustinTime]

Karma doesn't exist, as I said above. That means it doesn't work as a reward system either. So, as Jim78 says, there is nothing you can do to have the life you want the next time you reincarnate. It's my belief that we all live each life independently. If you are coming back to planet Earth, as it is in this century, you already know what you'll find: mostly greedy people only thinking about themselves, destroying the environment, never thinking about the future of their children. So, maybe the best thing you can do is grow and accept this. And if you don't like it, work now to change it.

How do you know karma doesn't exist with so much certainty?

There's plenty of debate from the other side that it does.

If there's no karma, then there's no accountability for anyone's actions. That means life becomes entirely meaningless, and reincarnation would be entirely meaningless, because allocation of "souls" to bodies would be entirely random and completely independent of prior action.

If that's the case, then people who have terrible lives should just commit suicide. If there's no karma, there's no repercussions for suicide either. Suicide would be the logical way out for those who have unbearably painful or hopeless lives.

 

[Jim78]

How do you know karma doesn't exist with so much certainty?

There's plenty of debate from the other side that it does.

If there's no karma, then there's no accountability for anyone's actions. That means life becomes entirely meaningless, and reincarnation would be entirely meaningless, because allocation of "souls" to bodies would be entirely random and completely independent of prior action.

If that's the case, then people who have terrible lives should just commit suicide. If there's no karma, there's no repercussions for suicide either. Suicide would be the logical way out for those who have unbearably painful or hopeless lives.

I don't believe karma is about getting a pat on the head if you do good and getting punished if you do bad. For me karma is about reaping what you sow. In my case I should have had a much harder life than I did considering my past lives but I can see a small hint in my current life that I needed to go through the pain I went through in order to learn from where my souls path has taken me. In my last life myself and others rebelled against an empire, in my current life I rebelled against a state alone. My resources and goals became smaller and more personal because my last life prepared me for the lessons I've learnt in my current life. The outcome of my actions would have been even more impactful in my current life than in my last life only for the fact that I've learned my lessons. For me karma is about God giving me the life that I need to evolve. It's not about God rewarding or punishing me. For me karma is about leading me to higher awareness and understanding. I'm a spiritual being on a human journey not a donkey needing a carrot and a stick. I absolutely loathe what my life has become since I learned a huge lesson and I was awakened to reincarnation, but I wouldn't change it. Without it I would never be who I am today and I'm grateful to God for the grace of giving me life lessons. Karma can be very cruel but I've always found that when it came my way it was very truthful. All I ever wanted was to seek higher truths. I don't expect rewards or punishments from God in this life. All I want is to keep growing. My life changing karma in my current life was to be presented with an ethical conundrum that retroactively spoke to all of my actions in my current and past lives. I believe that I had a hard life because I needed it, not because I deserved it.

 

[baro-san]

Karma doesn't exist, as I said above. That means it doesn't work as a reward system either. So, as Jim78 says, there is nothing you can do to have the life you want the next time you reincarnate. It's my belief that we all live each life independently. If you are coming back to planet Earth, as it is in this century, you already know what you'll find: mostly greedy people only thinking about themselves, destroying the environment, never thinking about the future of their children. So, maybe the best thing you can do is grow and accept this. And if you don't like it, work now to change it.

Karma exists. Your views seem to me to be too Earth-centric. When Earth life will be destroyed, our souls will still "survive", and keep evolving in other worlds.

 

[baro-san]

I don't believe karma is about getting a pat on the head if you do good and getting punished if you do bad. For me karma is about reaping what you sow. In my case I should have had a much harder life than I did considering my past lives but I can see a small hint in my current life that I needed to go through the pain I went through in order to learn from where my souls path has taken me. In my last life myself and others rebelled against an empire, in my current life I rebelled against a state alone. My resources and goals became smaller and more personal because my last life prepared me for the lessons I've learnt in my current life. The outcome of my actions would have been even more impactful in my current life than in my last life only for the fact that I've learned my lessons. For me karma is about God giving me the life that I need to evolve. It's not about God rewarding or punishing me. For me karma is about leading me to higher awareness and understanding. I'm a spiritual being on a human journey not a donkey needing a carrot and a stick. I absolutely loathe what my life has become since I learned a huge lesson and I was awakened to reincarnation, but I wouldn't change it. Without it I would never be who I am today and I'm grateful to God for the grace of giving me life lessons. Karma can be very cruel but I've always found that when it came my way it was very truthful. All I ever wanted was to seek higher truths. I don't expect rewards or punishments from God in this life. All I want is to keep growing. My life changing karma in my current life was to be presented with an ethical conundrum that retroactively spoke to all of my actions in my current and past lives. I believe that I had a hard life because I needed it, not because I deserved it.

Nice post!

My view about karma is that it is a balancing universal law at the consciousness level. It is similar to the physics law of action and reaction.

It might not matter if what we get is perceived as what we need, or as what we deserve. The difference is that "we need" implies that somebody knows where our souls are headed and guides us toward there, while "we deserve" implies that, through our thoughts, desires, and actions, we leave traces in the consciousness universe, which ripple into consequences that aim to maintain a universal equilibrium.

I'd say that "we need" to evolve toward our perfection, and what we think, desire, do, as a reflection of our level of evolvement, cause what's coming to us, so it can be said to be what "we deserve". It isn't a punishment / reward system, but a feedback system.

Seeing wealth, luck, and such, as karmic reward is incorrect, and counterproductive. Our life lessons are way more profound, and even simpler: humility, sacrifice, love, self awareness, ... Those are experienced independently of wealth, luck, ...

In most cases if you aren't happy with your life, it means that you haven't yet learned your current life's lesson, that somehow you still work (live) against its purpose, and need to change something. When you did it, everything falls in place.

 

[Jim78]

Nice post! My view about karma is that it is a balancing universal law at the consciousness level. It is similar to the physics law of action and reaction. It might not matter if what we get is perceived as what we need, or as what we deserve. The difference is that "we need" implies that somebody knows where our souls are headed and guides us toward there, while "we deserve" implies that, through our thoughts, desires, and actions, we leave traces in the consciousness universe, which ripple into consequences that aim to maintain a universal equilibrium. I'd say that "we need" to evolve toward our perfection, and what we think, desire, do, as a reflection of our level of evolvement, cause what's coming to us, so it can be said to be what "we deserve". It isn't a punishment / reward system, but a feedback system.

Thanks baro. I know not every reincarnationist believes in God but I do. Like some people say...why would I learn a moral lesson if there's no moral lawgiver? Maybe in spirit we don't see every step of the path laid before us but I would put good money on the idea that God knows. My experience with life is that it's malleable not static. I have free will but God already knows where that free will will take me and plans lessons for it.

I rebelled against God in my own way a few years back because I didn't get answers. I've never felt fear like the fear of God dispensing divine justice for me trying to pull the same stuff with Him that I pulled with people, but something tells me that I need to feel that fear because it highlights the weight of consequence to everything I've done. For good or ill it's my karma. I did feel that I was ready for answers but like many people that demand an explanation from God I got dead air. Yet I now believe that God did answer me...just not in a direct way. I believe I gained past life recall because I made a decision that had God's approval after a lifetime of being misguided ( I started having flashbacks 9 months after that decision ) and I believe I had to foul things up by refusing to stop fighting completely in my current life to drive the lesson home that the decision I made is the one I should always make. Gods a hard taskmaster I've found but it's great to think there's a plan to everything, I just hope I'm still a part of that plan.

 

[Eowyn]

Karma exists. Your views seem to me to be too Earth-centric. When Earth life will be destroyed, our souls will still "survive", and keep evolving in other worlds.

It all depends on what you believe it is karma, which from what I've seen can be anything. When I say karma doesn't exist I refer to karma as a universal law or a system of punishment and reward.

I don't see what survival of souls has to do with karma. I don't see my view as Earth-centric. Karma is Earth-centric, and based on human justice, not divine justice. That's one of the main reasons I don't believe in it. The other one is I've never, ever, seen proof of it, it seems it only exists in the form of a belief in a human's mind. This thread is a good example.

 

[Eowyn]

How do you know karma doesn't exist with so much certainty?

There's plenty of debate from the other side that it does.

If there's no karma, then there's no accountability for anyone's actions. That means life becomes entirely meaningless, and reincarnation would be entirely meaningless, because allocation of "souls" to bodies would be entirely random and completely independent of prior action.

If that's the case, then people who have terrible lives should just commit suicide. If there's no karma, there's no repercussions for suicide either. Suicide would be the logical way out for those who have unbearably painful or hopeless lives.

You're right about something. Suicide has no repercussions, at least I haven't noticed any after doing it in a past life (hope you read this before it's edited or deleted, suicide is a sensitive topic here).

Your actions have repercussions? Yes, they may or they may not. And it's less likely they have it in your next life, death have some advantages. Anyway, I don't call that karma. It's obvious our actions have consequences, and yes, we learn from them, we learn from our mistakes and our emotions. These latter do survive death. That's life. That's all. No need to invent "laws" of any kind.