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Joseph Smith and multiple mortal probations

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373

Member
So. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints official stance on multiple mortal probations (similar to reincarnation) is that is the doctrine of the devil. But there is some mystery here.
It has been reported by those who knew the first prophet of the church that he was at least at one point a believer in multiple mortal probations which is the idea that you can live more than one life on earth and potentially other solar systems.
Joseph Smith also said something which COULD allude you this idea in king follets sermon. He said that no man knows his history. That he would not believe it if he had not experienced what he had himself.
Now this is suspicious because many knew Joseph’s life very well. Perhaps he was alluding to past lives.
He also said that there were many things he could not teach the Saints as they would fly to pieces like glass anytime something contradicted their traditions. He said if he told them all he knew they would slay him.
There a a number of members of the church who believe he withheld the doctrine of multiple mortal probations out of fear of death, and because the world or the Saints at least, were not ready to hear it.
I know several blogs that do a deep dive into multiple mortal probations and explain in great great detail how they work and I find them very convincing.
I myself would say that I am a bit of a closet believer in the doctrine. I didn’t know where else to go so I came here.

are there any lds members here? I have grown quite lonely since my spiritual awakening and have found it hard to connect with people who aren’t into deep concepts such as multiple lives and spirituality and mystery. Everyone seems to be living in the world and my heads in outer space.

I once thought I met someone I knew in a past life. But they are no longer in my life.

anyways would love to hear some thoughts. Hope you the reader are having a good day/night
 
Hi 373,

Welcome, and thank you for such an interesting post! I had no idea there was anything of this type going on in the LDS and find it very intriguing. If you could, please provide links to the various blog entries you mention on multiple probations. I'd definitely like to study more on the matter. BTW--I am a Christian that believes in reincarnation. I don't keep count, but I believe there have been quite a few on this board from time to time. However, there is not a lot of standardization in terms of beliefs/doctrine--most Christians are like you (so to speak) fugitives in their own denomination. Hence, I am very curious to see how this has been handled by some in the LDS. My own position is that the intermediate state, i.e., the period between a hypothetical first birth and a hypothetical end point is a matter of dispute in various Christian denominations and that reincarnation is just another way to handle this period. The real emphasis in Christianity is on the life of faith and the transcendent/transformative end-point of the process in a final transfiguring resurrection. In between death and this final resurrection there is a definite majority position: The saved go to Heaven and the unsaved go elsewhere, both to await confirmation of their fates at a final resurrection. However, the RC insert an additional state of purgatory on the "way" to heaven for the saved. And, some Protestant denominations and even very prominent theologians have been mortalists, believing that there is no consciousness between (1) and (2), whether covered by the term "soul sleep" or not. Modern denominations in this category include the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah Witnesses' (and those two would probably not agree about much of anything else ;)).

Cordially,
S&S

PS--current studies show that approximately 25% of Christians are reincarnationists, but this is one area where letting your beliefs be known might well get you kicked out of your local church or taken under church discipline of some type, or even disowned by your family, so most keep their mouths shut.

PPS-I'll leave the question of what the "Lake of Fire" represents for Christian Universalists--who have been thinking and writing about that issue for quite a while.
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi 373,

Welcome, and thank you for such an interesting post! I had no idea there was anything of this type going on in the LDS and find it very intriguing. If you could, please provide links to the various blog entries you mention on multiple probations. I'd definitely like to study more on the matter. BTW--I am a Christian that believes in reincarnation. I don't keep count, but I believe there have been quite a few on this board from time to time. However, there is not a lot of standardization in terms of beliefs/doctrine--most Christians are like you (so to speak) fugitives in their own denomination. Hence, I am very curious to see how this has been handled by some in the LDS. My own position is that the intermediate state, i.e., the period between a hypothetical first birth and a hypothetical end point is a matter of dispute in various Christian denominations and that reincarnation is just another way to handle this period. The real emphasis in Christianity is on the life of faith and the transcendent/transformative end-point of the process in a final transfiguring resurrection. In between death and this final resurrection there is a definite majority position: The saved go to Heaven and the unsaved go elsewhere, both to await confirmation of their fates at a final resurrection. However, the RC insert an additional state of purgatory on the "way" to heaven for the saved. And, some Protestant denominations and even very prominent theologians have been mortalists, believing that there is no consciousness between (1) and (2), whether covered by the term "soul sleep" or not. Modern denominations in this category include the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah Witnesses' (and those two would probably not agree about much of anything else ;)).

Cordially,
S&S

PS--current studies show that approximately 25% of Christians are reincarnationists, but this is one area where letting your beliefs be known might well get you kicked out of your local church or taken under church discipline of some type, or even disowned by your family, so most keep their mouths shut.

PPS-I'll leave the question of what the "Lake of Fire" represents for Christian Universalists--who have been thinking and writing about that issue for quite a while.
Click to expand...

thank you for your response! I’m glad you found it intriguing. I also find your response intriguing and will do my best to answer what I can.

so the church stance on the period between death and the final judgement is this: after you die you go to either spirit prison or spirit paradise. This world is around us on earth but we cannot see it. You are in your spirit body and you can still have the gospel preached to you if you are in spirit prison and still have an opportunity to attain your salvation. The idea that good people go straight to hell who have no faith is not our ideology. It is said there are many missionaries preaching the gospel in the afterlife.

not only this but we also believe before we were born we existed in heaven with Heavenly Father as spirit children. When Satan rebelled he took 1/3 part of our brothers and sisters with him. They do not get to inhabit bodies on earth. They are the demons.

now how does reincarnation or mortal probations fit into this? It is the churches stance that we are here to learn and grow and learn to become gods ourselves. We have this thing called eternal progression. We believe that we progress here on earth and that progression doesn’t stop here but it continues on in the afterlife for eternity. We add glory to Heavenly Father as we progress. So I think it is very possible a part of eternal progression is that we incarnate more than once to progress further. So perhaps you go to the spirit world to rest before deciding to return and give it another go. We also believe that god was once a man as we are on another planet and the he attained godhood. So this points to there being many gods but heavenly father is the only god we are to have anything to do with. One quote I can recall about this is Jesus saying he only does what he saw his father do. Meaning to us what he saw his father do when his father acted as a savior for another world.

One of these blogs actually takes a very interesting stance that the Davidic servant (end times servant) is the Holy Ghost incarnate about to achieve his exaltation to godhood. I can expound on this if it is of any interest.

Im not sure what your last question was. The lake of fire I don’t have much knowledge on. The churches stance is that after the resurrection you go to either: outer darkness, or one of the three kingdoms of heaven. Though it is suspected that there are many more degrees of glory (heavens) that we need not know of yet. The highest heaven is for those who have been baptized into the church, attained the priesthood, married in the temple, and kept their covenants and faith. They are to become gods and goddesses. Outer darkness is simply hell. I do not know much about it. Perhaps I will look into it more. Those in outer darkness do not get the presence of any part of Heavenly Father.

to expound a little more those who are in the highest kingdom live in heavenly fathers presence. Those in the lower kingdoms I believe can be visited by him but do not live in the same realm as he does. The lowest heaven is similar to earth I believe.
I’m glad your curious I love to share this stuff with people. I find it all very fascinating.

you yourself I believe stated that you were a Christian. What denomination are you? Looking forward to your reply!

Oh almost forgot the links.
One blog is called “Lord of the Seraphim”. I believe you can find it easily with a quick google. And it’s easy to navigate the site.

the other is called “lds anarchy”. That is a little harder to find posts. Let me link you.

Hmm. I can’t find a post about multiple mortal probations on lds anarchy. Perhaps I am misremembering. But he goes into detail about the davidic servant and I was on the edge of my seat reading it.
Here’s the lord of the seraphim

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2017/12/mutiple-mortal-probations.html?m=1


Hope you find something of interest there!
 
Hi 373,

I'll try to respond point by point:

so the church stance on the period between death and the final judgement is this: after you die you go to either spirit prison or spirit paradise. This world is around us on earth but we cannot see it. You are in your spirit body and you can still have the gospel preached to you if you are in spirit prison and still have an opportunity to attain your salvation. The idea that good people go straight to hell who have no faith is not our ideology. It is said there are many missionaries preaching the gospel in the afterlife.

The allied doctrine in Christian Universalist circles is referred to as "Postmortem Salvation". Christian Universalism as well as Christian Reincarnationism were crushed relatively quickly after "original" Christianity was subsumed by the Emperor Constantine and "conformed" to a more imperial format and purpose (which was basically to act as a uniform and unifying empire-wide religion validating and supporting imperial rule). However, that is not to assume that Christianity as it existed in the first few hundred years was uniform and completely contrary to what it became thereafter. As Jesus (perhaps somewhat ruefully) observed, one should not put new wine in old wine skins. However, the early Christians (who came from a variety of backgrounds) naturally sought to understand the new religion in accordance with their own pre-conceived notions. The early Jewish followers (the Judaizers) sought to conform it to their preexisting ideas. The Greeks to theirs, and the Romans to theirs. The last was, as far as I can tell, the most lasting and distorting. In terms of second chances and universalism, there are various internet resources on Apocatastasis and Christian Universalism you may find interesting. Here are a couple from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christian_universalism and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis

To my mind, postmortem salvation is also closely aligned with the doctrine of the "Harrowing of Hell" which is currently held by the Eastern Orthodox and (in more limited form) by the Roman Catholics. You will also find mention in various locales of Origen and the Origenists. Origen is considered to be the greatest and most insightful early Christian theologian. Whether Origen was a full-fledged reincarnationist or universalist is a matter disputed by both ancient and modern authorities, however, there were many of his followers who were quite definitely one or both. These doctrines were basically anathematized in some early church councils, largely in response to imperial urging/demands as well as the demands of less sympathetic theologians. Both doctrines have continued to be held in sporadic and limited fashion by various groups since then. Two notable examples of belief in reincarnation were the Bogomils (in Eastern Europe) and Cathars (in Western Europe). The Cathars were ruthlessly exterminated via the Albigensian Crusade and subsequent Inquisition. The Bogomils somewhat more slowly in the East by the Eastern Orthodox (they finally died out after their last strongholds were conquered by Islam). I am very sympathetic to the Cathars overall, though not to everything every group of Cathars believed (they were not completely uniform in this regard).

not only this but we also believe before we were born we existed in heaven with Heavenly Father as spirit children. When Satan rebelled he took 1/3 part of our brothers and sisters with him. They do not get to inhabit bodies on earth. They are the demons.

Preexistence, including the fall of Satan alluded to (including the fall of 1/3 of the heavenly spirits) also appears in various forms across the course of Christian history (including among the Cathars), though I think the conception of what that was like as an unfallen "spirit" in the relevant Christian circles would be very different from LDS conceptions. However, outside of the fall of Satan, these were also doctrines ruled heretical during the same time periods alluded to above, and thereafter when they reappeared (such as among the Cathars). However, the fallen 1/3 was generally considered to be "us" or a mix of us, angels, and demons (depending, so to speak, on how hard/far a particular spirit fell). BTW--In 1st century Judaism, the demons were generally considered to be the disembodied remnants of the Nephilim, who being the offspring of both heavenly and earthly beings had no real place in either and were, consequently, stuck in between. (Plus, they were very evil as they were the product of "fallen" heavenly beings).

(Cont'd)
 
now how does reincarnation or mortal probations fit into this? It is the churches stance that we are here to learn and grow and learn to become gods ourselves. We have this thing called eternal progression. We believe that we progress here on earth and that progression doesn’t stop here but it continues on in the afterlife for eternity. We add glory to Heavenly Father as we progress. So I think it is very possible a part of eternal progression is that we incarnate more than once to progress further. So perhaps you go to the spirit world to rest before deciding to return and give it another go. We also believe that god was once a man as we are on another planet and the he attained godhood. So this points to there being many gods but heavenly father is the only god we are to have anything to do with. One quote I can recall about this is Jesus saying he only does what he saw his father do. Meaning to us what he saw his father do when his father acted as a savior for another world.

One of these blogs actually takes a very interesting stance that the Davidic servant (end times servant) is the Holy Ghost incarnate about to achieve his exaltation to godhood. I can expound on this if it is of any interest.

In any variety of Christian reincarnation, the purpose of reincarnation would also be the salvation/sanctification and ultimate deification of the subject spirit, though Christians who espouse ideas of deification do not have the same approach to the matter proposed by Joseph Smith. From what I can tell, the LDS have an almost "egalitarian" approach to spiritual beings, such that the only difference between us and God is a matter of lesser development. I.e., in Christianity there is absolutely no comparison between what we will become, and are capable of becoming, and God Most High (or the members of the Trinity). I am not very well versed in LDS theology, but I think the difference may be related to the fact that the being we refer to as "God" is seen by the LDS as a planetary(?) or maybe solar system(?) deity rather than a truly universal all-powerful one-of-a-kind deity. (No intention of offending here, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong). So, God to a Christian is Supreme God everywhere and will never be displace in that role anywhere, though I wouldn't be surprised to find that our stewardship duties as exalted spirits included the watch-care of other worlds.

Im not sure what your last question was. The lake of fire I don’t have much knowledge on. The churches stance is that after the resurrection you go to either: outer darkness, or one of the three kingdoms of heaven. Though it is suspected that there are many more degrees of glory (heavens) that we need not know of yet. The highest heaven is for those who have been baptized into the church, attained the priesthood, married in the temple, and kept their covenants and faith. They are to become gods and goddesses. Outer darkness is simply hell. I do not know much about it. Perhaps I will look into it more. Those in outer darkness do not get the presence of any part of Heavenly Father.

to expound a little more those who are in the highest kingdom live in heavenly fathers presence. Those in the lower kingdoms I believe can be visited by him but do not live in the same realm as he does. The lowest heaven is similar to earth I believe.

There is no universal Christian idea about the different levels, planes, realms, etc. of the heavens, though since the Apostle Paul reported a trip to the "Third Heaven" and the Bible universally (with possibly minor exceptions) uses the plural "heavens" rather than "heaven" (with the latter usually being just one more example of lousy Bible translation--one of my pet peeves), there is little doubt that there are such distinctions. There is also no universal agreement in terms of access to different levels, though I think it safe to say that to the extent this is discussed, it would probably be in connection with levels of spiritual development. (However, I don't guaranty that in Protestant circles or elsewhere for that matter). The "Outer Darkness" is also seen as a reference to perdition by most Christians, though I see it as a much broader term myself. The "Lake of Fire" is referenced in the Book of Revelations quite prominently, so I am surprised it does not appear in LDS theology. However, its interpretation varies between figurative and literal among Christians, though the definite majority position is that it is permanent and punitive rather than temporary and purgative. In the majority position, it is the final form that perdition/Hell takes. So, a very scary place and consequence.

I’m glad your curious I love to share this stuff with people. I find it all very fascinating.

you yourself I believe stated that you were a Christian. What denomination are you? Looking forward to your reply!

Likewise in terms of the discussion. I am a Christian, but my denomination is not really representative of my beliefs, so it wouldn't be fair to them to be too much associated with me. However, I grew up as an Episcopalian and I switched to Presbyterian when I married one. ;)

Oh almost forgot the links.
One blog is called “Lord of the Seraphim”. I believe you can find it easily with a quick google. And it’s easy to navigate the site.

the other is called “lds anarchy”. That is a little harder to find posts. Let me link you.

Hmm. I can’t find a post about multiple mortal probations on lds anarchy. Perhaps I am misremembering. But he goes into detail about the davidic servant and I was on the edge of my seat reading it.
Here’s the lord of the seraphim

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2017/12/mutiple-mortal-probations.html?m=1

Hope you find something of interest there!

Actually, I did my own search and came up with a pretty good number of sites. I was surprised to find so many LDS sites discussing the matter. It seems to be a bit more of an active controversy in the LDS than I originally thought. On the Christian side, I'd say it is somewhere between the number of sites related to Christian Universalism (which are numerous) and those related to Christian Reincarnationism (which tend to be very limited). In neither case, however, do either represent a major branch of Christianity, though there are some smaller denominations that hold one or the other (and sometimes both).

Cordially,
S&S
 
Hi 373,

I found a series of videos on the topic on Youtube that you might find interesting. I only got to listen through the first:


The LDS person doing most of the speaking appears to claim psychic abilities, and says a few zany things in that regard, but otherwise appears to be pretty sensible in the way she discusses the subject. Overall, it made me more curious about LDS doctrine (especially since a lot of the terminology was new to me). In any case, I'd like to get your feed-back on what was said when you get a chance.

Cordially,
S&S
 
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This is one of the more obvious flaws with the modern church and its doctrines as it ultimately becomes a wall and chain where accept such doctrines along with their equally flawed interpretations or be forced into the fringes. As for such "punishment" we are here now who have obviously been around before despite failings and misdeeds that said it is better to get word from the other side when possible as it won't be packed in Earthly lies. After the old world passes away these same souls will be on the new world living new dramas and experiences probably non the wiser.
 
Hi TABA,

I guess it depends on what you mean by "word from the other side". I am at least as skeptical of info packaged or purporting to be "word from the other side" in most cases as I am about things categorized as "Earthly lies". (There are plenty of lies in both categories as far as I can tell).

However, I have been interested to get additional insight into "plural probations" in LDS doctrinal history. From the various sources I have looked at, including the linked Youtube, the official LDS condemnation of "reincarnation" is of "reincarnation" in distinction to what they believe to be the true doctrine of plural/multiple probations. E.g., the folks explaining described "reincarnation" as allowing rebirth as animals, plants, etc. (which may have been beliefs held by ancient Greeks and currently held--I think--by Buddhists, but are certainly not characteristic beliefs for most people who use the word "reincarnation").

In contrast to this, plural probations is much more limited = only human to human, Male to Male, and Female to Female. This reminds me a lot of what I read at one time about "Gilgul" which seemed to be very similar if not identical. (This is probably not a coincidence, as Joseph Smith apparently took some interest in--and/or inspiration from--Kabbalah).

Cordially,
S&S
 
And once again circle the same drain over and over again with different details and circumstances, this is how people get spiritually trapped and worse sucked into cults.
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi 373,

I found a series of videos on the topic on Youtube that you might find interesting. I only got to listen through the first:


The LDS person doing most of the speaking appears to claim psychic abilities, and says a few zany things in that regard, but otherwise appears to be pretty sensible in the way she discusses the subject. Overall, it made me more curious about LDS doctrine (especially since a lot of the terminology was new to me). In any case, I'd like to get your feed-back on what was said when you get a chance.

Cordially,
S&S
Click to expand...

I’ll watch and get back to you soon. And reply to your other comment as well.
 
Hi TABA,

Maybe you should give me a PM. I'm having trouble picking up on what you're trying to tell me, though it seems somewhat disapproving. :cool:

Cordially,
S&S
 
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@SeaAndSky

I am not very well versed in LDS theology, but I think the difference may be related to the fact that the being we refer to as "God" is seen by the LDS as a planetary(?) or maybe solar system(?) deity rather than a truly universal all-powerful one-of-a-kind deity.

My understanding of our view of God is that he is in charge of more than our solar system. It may be that he is in charge of the whole universe. We believe their are worlds without number and that Jesus is the savior of more than one world. I am not 100 percent sure about this but I would venture to say God is God of the universe and that it is possible there are other universes with another God. In King Follets sermon Joseph Smith is fairly clear that God was once a man. So perhaps he was a man in another universe? I really am not sure.

As far as what happens after you are God of a world or a universe that comes to a close I really don't know and perhaps it isn't useful for us to know. I seem to think that eternal progression is just that, eternal, and maybe God goes onto an even higher status after this universe comes to a close. Now the Bible verse that God does not change comes to mind as I say this. Perhaps he does not change but his dominion does. I hope that suffices to squash that argument that many naysayers of the church have.

with the latter usually being just one more example of lousy Bible translation--one of my pet peeves

This is something the Church is very clear about. We believe the Bible to be the word of God inso much that it is translated correctly. We think there are translation errors in the Bible. Joseph Smith actually made a translation of the Bible known as the Joseph Smith Translation. He undertook this work after translating The Book of Mormon. It is debated whether or not his work on the Joseph Smith Translation was completed by the time of his martyrdom, but is said to be a valuable piece of work. It is not used as a whole by the Church because the Translation fell into the hands of a splinter group of the Church. It is available in its entirety though and as long as the splinter group did not alter his work at all I would recommend looking it over as it has many additions that give further insight into things.

The "Lake of Fire" is referenced in the Book of Revelations quite prominently, so I am surprised it does not appear in LDS theology

I am sure it is in LDS theology I just am unsure of what we think of it exactly. I have only been a believer in the church for around 3 years I would say. 7 years ago I had my spiritual experience which made me believe in God and Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, but I was unsure about scripture and had never read any of it. I then had a falling away for a few years after psychologists seemed to think my experience was all delusion. I then decided I could not deny my experience and decided I was christian but that the Church was false. I then researched the church for many years, read a lot of anti mormon material and concluded that the Church was indeed true. So I have been on a crash course the past few years and still have some holes in my knowledge of the doctrines. Though I do like to think in my short time being involved I have come to know many things.

I was glad to see your replies and am looking forward to further discussion. This is really fueling my spiritual appetite. Thank you for your insight into the various christian viewpoints of things.
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi 373,

I found a series of videos on the topic on Youtube that you might find interesting. I only got to listen through the first:


The LDS person doing most of the speaking appears to claim psychic abilities, and says a few zany things in that regard, but otherwise appears to be pretty sensible in the way she discusses the subject. Overall, it made me more curious about LDS doctrine (especially since a lot of the terminology was new to me). In any case, I'd like to get your feed-back on what was said when you get a chance.

Cordially,
S&S
Click to expand...

I just finished watching the video. Thank you for pointing me towards it I found it very fascinating and drew a lot of new ideas from it. I feel it gave me further insight into the topic and I did feel the spirit as I watched. I agree she did say a few zany things that I wish she hadn't but I thought that she was fairly well put together overall and that the two of them did a great job explaining the topic, delving into things I had not yet considered.

Id love to give you some feedback. I will also be watching parts 2 and 3 on the topic if I can get around to it. Ill try to point out some things you may not be familiar with, but if there is anything I missed please let me know. Or if I should elaborate on anything.

So I think I touched on eternal progression earlier. That is the idea that we progress in this life and the next.

The Plan of Salvation they referenced many times in conjunction with.. did they call the Plan of Exaltation? If it wasn't that it was something similar. I should have taken notes.

I just rewatched some of it and it was the plan or doctrine of exaltation

They stated that the Plan of Salvation is the Churches current concern and that the Plan of Exaltation is kind of a secondary thing that we need not know about quite yet, but some of us are ready for it and seeking it. Seemingly you and I would fall into this category;).

The Plan of Salvation is simple. you can actually google "Plan of Salvation" and a nice image will pop up for you. It goes like this:

1. pre mortal life - I will draw from the church website for this.

"Before you were born on the earth, you lived in the presence of your Heavenly Father as one of His spirit children. In this premortal existence, you attended a council with Heavenly Father’s other spirit children. At that council, Heavenly Father presented His great plan of happiness (see Abraham 3:22–26)."

"In harmony with the plan of happiness, the premortal Jesus Christ, the Firstborn Son of the Father in the spirit, covenanted to be the Savior (see Moses 4:2; Abraham 3:27). Those who followed Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were permitted to come to the earth to experience mortality and progress toward eternal life. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and “sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). He became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privileges of receiving a physical body and experiencing mortality (see Moses 4:4; Abraham 3:27–28).

Throughout your premortal life, you developed your identity and increased your spiritual capabilities. Blessed with the gift of agency (free will), you made important decisions, such as the decision to follow Heavenly Father’s plan. These decisions affected your life then and now. You grew in intelligence and learned to love the truth, and you prepared to come to the earth, where you could continue to progress."

2. Mortal Life - "You are now experiencing mortal life. Your spirit is united with your body, giving you opportunities to grow and develop in ways that were not possible in your premortal life. This part of your existence is a time of learning in which you can prove yourself, choose to come unto Christ, and prepare to be worthy of eternal life. It is also a time when you can help others find the truth and gain a testimony of the plan of salvation."

3. Death - Body goes to the grave, spirit goes to either spirit paradise or spirit prison

4. Resurrection

5. Final Judgement

6. Celestial, Telestial, Terrestial Kingdom, or Outer Darkness.

Now the Plan of Exaltation I do not know to be a church term, but perhaps one day it will be. Much is yet to be revealed to us and God has promised to reveal more before the end comes. I do think they are right that the Plan of Exaltation may very be revealed in the near future.

Exaltation however IS a term we use. It simply refers to achieving the Celestial Kingdom. I believe it also refers to becoming a God or Goddess yourself, it is being exalted to the highest known degree of glory.

Lets see what else did they mention

Temple Ordinances - We have buildings called temples. In them we perform sacred ordinances (not secret). Freemasons have secret rituals we have sacred rituals. The way I see it is this. ANYONE who obeys the commandments of God as we believe them to be can get into the temple. Freemasonry however only allows people that have been referred by another member. They can disallow membership to anyone and you cannot join without a referral. We have open doors, you just have to be a true believer to get in.

An example of a temple ordinance would be an "Endowment Ceremony". This is a ceremony that occurs after baptism and typically before your mission should you be going on one. I myself have yet to receive my endowment. In the endowment ceremony you get what is called the Melchizedek Priesthood. This is the highest priesthood and comes after the Aaronic Priesthood which is the lesser priesthood.

The priesthood is how God operates here on earth. Those who hold the Melchizedek Priesthood are considered the elect of God.

I am sure they threw many more terms out there. Really wish I had your question in mind as I was watching so I could write them down as they came! If you have any other terms you'd like to know about please let me know. I am thoroughly enjoying sharing this with you. The doctrine of the Church, past lives, and other deep subjects are my biggest passions.

Cheers and hope you have a good day
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi TABA,

Maybe you should give me a PM. I'm having trouble picking up on what you're trying to tell me, though it seems somewhat disapproving. :cool:

Cordially,
S&S
Click to expand...

I believe he is implying that I am in a Cult, and that it is going to halt my spiritual progression. I beg to differ and don't see the need to put it quite so rudely, but to each his own I suppose.
 
Hi 373,

I'm not sure that's what TABA means, and I wouldn't take it as an insult. However, even if he is expressing a concern about someone getting "sucked" into something, there is little danger of that with anyone on this board. Out of 100 board members you are quite likely to find 1000+ opinions on ultimate matters, and we are all (in my experience) rather stubbornly independent in terms of what we believe--otherwise most of us would not be on a board like this. We do get some fairly immature younger types from time-to-time, generally with an idea that they are a dead rock star from an earlier generation (or something similar), but other than that I find the folks that stay here to be pretty mature and hard-headed (the latter can be a bad thing as well as a good thing).

I'm too rushed at the moment to respond in any depth to much of what you have posted, though I appreciate the investment of time. However, along with exploring some things that are happening in/with the LDS, I think you need to be exploring the huge amount of scientific research that has been going on in the last 50 years or so related to this field. (It caught me completely by surprise when I started looking into things). This can broaden your understanding without (if I am any example) threatening your underlying beliefs--other than to challenge the idea that reincarnation/multiple probation does not exist.

I'll try to get back with a more full-fledged response later.

Cordially,
S&S
 
Hi 373,

I've got time for a quick break, so here is my first suggestion to introduce you to the field of modern scientific research into reincarnation: Ian Stevenson. The following article from "Scientific American" (a fairly famous publication in the U.S.) will serve as a quick introduction from a usually skeptical source:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...e-we-e28098skepticse28099-really-just-cynics/

A quick resource (and easy reference) related to his research is available here:

https://www.reincarnationresearch.c...emories-and-the-research-of-ian-stevenson-md/

Of course, there is a lot more by him and about his research, but this is a good place to start IMO.

Cordially,
S&S
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi 373,

Another good resource, available locally and easy to access, is on the "SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research" heading of the board:

http://reincarnationforum.com/threads/helen-wambachs-research.4166/

In this thread you will find a post with links to several really good Youtubes discussing Wambach's scientific research and results re reincarnation.

All are good and very worth listening to.

Cordially,
S&S
Click to expand...

thabk you for further information sources. I am currently sitting at a divide. I imagine a world where plural probations is a reality. And one where it isn’t. I don’t think the general population necessarily needs to know if it is real supposing it is true. But those of us seeking more meaning and knowledge may benefit from this knowledge.
The question for me is... what does it mean for me? I currently have a bizarre potentiality of a belief in my head about who I am in this life, and it if it isn’t true it certainly is grandiose to the extreme. That being said I only hold at it as a potential truth, not a certain one. I tend to put my eggs in many baskets, besides my faith in the church which holds all eggs in that case.
This belief of mine is founded by dreams, visions, and my conversion experience. I am very hesitant to let the cat out of the bag, but I’m trying to figure out where to spend my time.
What does reincarnation mean for you? Why have you looked so deeply into it? I myself have spent a good deal amount of time looking into it, but I am guessing you have researched it further. I am very open to it being a reality, and am actually hoping it’s true (as long as this is my last life, which I believe it to be). This also brings another thought into my head that I had in the past.

I have thought, if I knew reincarnation to be true in a past life, and knew someone important was existing, such as John the Baptist, or Jesus Christ, or Moses, I would try to create a system to identify them when they return. Perhaps a secret society. I was delusional when I considered this, but I think this is something worth wondering about. Do you think any society exists which has records of important people and is looking for their return? I have heard that it is a potential reality that Freemasons believe in reincarnation. But I believe them to be an evil group.

anyways. Sorry for the lack of focus in my response. I just wrote what came to my heart and mind. And again thank you for the conversation.
 
Hi 373,

People come to believe in reincarnation “R” for various reasons. However, as far as I can tell, these all boil down to the fact that R represents a solution to a problem or a multitude of problems (or dilemmas) they see in life and/or their life. Many people have feelings, memories, phobias, dreams, and other personal issues that don’t seem to have an origin, solution or resolution except by bringing the possibility of R into the picture. There are many accounts of the resolution of psychological issues through R therapy. Some of the best books on R (and also easily available in many libraries) are those by Dr. Brian Weiss, a top psychiatrist who did not believe in anything of the sort, but stumbled into R in treating his patients and found that past lives “Pls” were often the source of their problems and the place where a cure could be found! (You should definitely read anything you can find by Dr. Weiss).

Anyhow, with considerable overlap, there seem to be two basic groups of people who look into (and come to believe) in R: Those seeking a solution to problems at a personal level (for themselves or another), and those seeking a solution to the BIG problem of existence itself and why we are here. On the “big picture” side, many groups over the millennia have seen R as providing at least part of the solution in the quest for meaning in existence. I won’t go into details except to say that the viewpoints vary between those seeing this existence as a jail or prison, and those seeing it as a school, with many variations between those two. So, that leaves us stuck here over and over again like prisoners serving out various sentences or children learning their lessons. I lean toward the “school” paradigm, and it seems the best supported on current evidence from PL researchers. However, even in this context, there are “time outs”, and various punishments that might be meted out as part of the learning process or to keep order. It may even be that expulsion is possible for students who can’t get with, and disrupt, the program and especially for those who become an incessant danger to others.

In the “school” paradigm, there are going to be many, many levels of students, just as our schools are divided between those in various grades, each with distinctive lessons that must be learned in order to progress. In this context, the only ones who should be present are students, teachers, (and on the “teacher” side a variety of other enforcement, service and/or administrative personnel). This doesn’t leave out the possibility of “others” who are not there by right, but that gets into too many other possibilities to discuss at this time. So, if someone is here, they are almost certainly either a student or a teacher (or the like), though students also seem to assist in teaching each other. So, advanced "teachers" who have graduated and returned to help teach others (probably after receiving special teaching and preparation at a higher level) are obviously very rare.

Most of the people on this board tend to believe they are somewhat more advanced in grade, but though I have a high opinion of many, I certainly haven’t met anyone I considered to be ready to “graduate” (including especially myself). Still, one way of seeing Christianity in an R context would be to see it as a way of leaving this particular "school" for another in a "heavenly" context. I.e., graduating and going to "college" on high. ;) However, I'm not sure about that myself. I see it as more of an avenue for, and invitation to, the reforming and transforming power of God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Obviously, this will greatly accelerate the growth process--to the degree it is sought and lived. Whether it automatically transcends the need for further lessons in this world as part of the growth process, and/or the need to remain and return as salt and light in this world is beyond me, but I don't think so.

The various permutations and implications of the foregoing models would take too long to discuss at this point, and I do not (by any means) have all the answers anyway. So, I’ll pass on to your next question: whether there are any organizations at present to discover or determine “who” had returned, and especially “on the look out” for the return of certain prominent personages from the past? As far as I can tell, the answer to this is no. However, such an organization would likely be secret anyway. So, you would have to search for it. In that regard, you might want to look into the Rosicrucians. I doubt they are involved in trying to locate famous spirits reborn (Biblical or otherwise), but they do believe in reincarnation from a Christian or at least quasi-christian perspective.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--There are a variety of Rosicrucian groups. I have no idea which would be best, or the best for your purposes.
 
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SeaAndSky said:
I won’t go into details except to say that the viewpoints vary between those seeing this existence as a jail or prison, and those seeing it as a school, with many variations between those two.
Click to expand...
Those ideas may be popular with some, but are by new means representative of the full range of possibilities. Certainly I reject those ideas myself, and don't think I'm alone.
 
Hi Speedwell,

You are correct, of course, and I am over-simplifying. Mostly, I was using a "broad brush" approach in terms of what I perceive to be the main views arising out of historic Western sources or arising as a result of current research (also mostly Western). For this I apologize.

However, this is indeed a very broad topic. At this point, having raised the issue of other views on the topic as well as your own, it would probably be a good idea if you expanded on it and provided your own viewpoint as well as that of others that you consider pertinent to the discussion.

Cordially,
S&S
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi Speedwell,

You are correct, of course, and I am over-simplifying. Mostly, I was using a "broad brush" approach in terms of what I perceive to be the main views arising out of historic Western sources or arising as a result of current research (also mostly Western). For this I apologize.

However, this is indeed a very broad topic. At this point, having raised the issue of other views on the topic as well as your own, it would probably be a good idea if you expanded on it and provided your own viewpoint as well as that of others that you consider pertinent to the discussion.
Click to expand...
No problem, you're entitled to express things from a perspective which you consider pertinent.

Other ideas, well I cannot be complete here, so I can only just add one or two thoughts. These are mostly not my own, but ideas I've heard described or mentioned elsewhere.

We may be explorers. I tend to use the analogy of being an astronaut visiting somewhere like the planet Mars. Or maybe a deep-sea diver venturing into the depths of the ocean. These are not easy, nor really necessary. But almost "because it's there" we like to try things. One idea I heard, from an NDE (near-death experience) account, is that there are those in the non-physical realms who consider anyone who is bold enough to venture here into the physical, to be brave or heroic, simply for coming here. Our every experience is something which is valued by them.

Some may come here to experience this beautiful planet, to live amidst it and appreciate being among its nature. Or to feel the exhilaration of some of its possibilities.

Or perhaps we are ambassadors, representatives, volunteering to bring something of the spirit into the world, to play our part in illuminating it.

I'm sure there are more, some significant ideas I've not mentioned. For that I apologise.
 
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Hi Speedwell,

Interesting perspectives. Native Son's view, if I'm remembering correctly, was that this place was something akin to an amusement park (or at least a recreational experience).

Cordially,
S&S
 
373 said:
So. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints official stance on multiple mortal probations (similar to reincarnation) is that is the doctrine of the devil. But there is some mystery here.
It has been reported by those who knew the first prophet of the church that he was at least at one point a believer in multiple mortal probations which is the idea that you can live more than one life on earth and potentially other solar systems.
Joseph Smith also said something which COULD allude you this idea in king follets sermon. He said that no man knows his history. That he would not believe it if he had not experienced what he had himself.
Now this is suspicious because many knew Joseph’s life very well. Perhaps he was alluding to past lives.
He also said that there were many things he could not teach the Saints as they would fly to pieces like glass anytime something contradicted their traditions. He said if he told them all he knew they would slay him.
There a a number of members of the church who believe he withheld the doctrine of multiple mortal probations out of fear of death, and because the world or the Saints at least, were not ready to hear it.
I know several blogs that do a deep dive into multiple mortal probations and explain in great great detail how they work and I find them very convincing.
I myself would say that I am a bit of a closet believer in the doctrine. I didn’t know where else to go so I came here.

are there any lds members here? I have grown quite lonely since my spiritual awakening and have found it hard to connect with people who aren’t into deep concepts such as multiple lives and spirituality and mystery. Everyone seems to be living in the world and my heads in outer space.

I once thought I met someone I knew in a past life. But they are no longer in my life.

anyways would love to hear some thoughts. Hope you the reader are having a good day/night
Click to expand...


373, I'm not sure how to respond to this because if one believes in reincarnation then one would realized that not only do we live many lifetimes as soul, but also we would have in those other lifetimes believed in many different religions and spiritual paths along the way. This occurs because as soul evolves and grows in maturity it will change in its spiritual consciousness which in turn will change point of views in spiritual paths which best fits its new state of consciousness. Because no one, man made religion owns god. As god resonate far beyond any man made laws, rules or belief systems. Personally all spiritual paths and religions on this planet are nothing more than tools for man to try to understand the divine from within the self. So no matter what culture or religion one might be or come from all are inward tools for the soul to connect to the divine within the self. So each soul must choose what best fits it's spiritual state of consciousness.

The process of reincarnation is to me the evolution of soul (consciousness itself if you will) to gain experience, and spiritual maturity as it evolves toward self realization of it's true self as soul and eventually God awareness or what some may term enlightenment. This process takes hundreds if not millions of years to achieve this state of being. One thing I have never understood is mans need for sin. Most people are taught (at least in western cultures) we are born from sin and need salvation. However the opposite is true. Soul comes from divine love not sin. It needs no salvation because it is eternal by nature already because it is the divine spark of consciousness from god itself. However while in the worlds of duality, time, space and matter it will have to experience both polarities of reality while here. Which means it will have to experience both the good and the bad within itself and within others in order to understand the whole of reality. To be rich, or poor, to be successful, or a failure, male, or female, different sexual orientations, different races, different cultures, to abuse power to serve the lower ego and also learning how to harness power for the greater good of all and so much more.

Thru this process of trial and error it will eventually evolve to a state of enlightenment where all is made clear and whole again to the inner self. So in many ways its not the destination that changes us so much as the journey getting there that does.

Peace and love always.

P.
 
SeaAndSky said:
Hi 373,

People come to believe in reincarnation “R” for various reasons. However, as far as I can tell, these all boil down to the fact that R represents a solution to a problem or a multitude of problems (or dilemmas) they see in life and/or their life. Many people have feelings, memories, phobias, dreams, and other personal issues that don’t seem to have an origin, solution or resolution except by bringing the possibility of R into the picture. There are many accounts of the resolution of psychological issues through R therapy. Some of the best books on R (and also easily available in many libraries) are those by Dr. Brian Weiss, a top psychiatrist who did not believe in anything of the sort, but stumbled into R in treating his patients and found that past lives “Pls” were often the source of their problems and the place where a cure could be found! (You should definitely read anything you can find by Dr. Weiss).

Anyhow, with considerable overlap, there seem to be two basic groups of people who look into (and come to believe) in R: Those seeking a solution to problems at a personal level (for themselves or another), and those seeking a solution to the BIG problem of existence itself and why we are here. On the “big picture” side, many groups over the millennia have seen R as providing at least part of the solution in the quest for meaning in existence. I won’t go into details except to say that the viewpoints vary between those seeing this existence as a jail or prison, and those seeing it as a school, with many variations between those two. So, that leaves us stuck here over and over again like prisoners serving out various sentences or children learning their lessons. I lean toward the “school” paradigm, and it seems the best supported on current evidence from PL researchers. However, even in this context, there are “time outs”, and various punishments that might be meted out as part of the learning process or to keep order. It may even be that expulsion is possible for students who can’t get with, and disrupt, the program and especially for those who become an incessant danger to others.

In the “school” paradigm, there are going to be many, many levels of students, just as our schools are divided between those in various grades, each with distinctive lessons that must be learned in order to progress. In this context, the only ones who should be present are students, teachers, (and on the “teacher” side a variety of other enforcement, service and/or administrative personnel). This doesn’t leave out the possibility of “others” who are not there by right, but that gets into too many other possibilities to discuss at this time. So, if someone is here, they are almost certainly either a student or a teacher (or the like), though students also seem to assist in teaching each other. So, advanced "teachers" who have graduated and returned to help teach others (probably after receiving special teaching and preparation at a higher level) are obviously very rare.

Most of the people on this board tend to believe they are somewhat more advanced in grade, but though I have a high opinion of many, I certainly haven’t met anyone I considered to be ready to “graduate” (including especially myself). Still, one way of seeing Christianity in an R context would be to see it as a way of leaving this particular "school" for another in a "heavenly" context. I.e., graduating and going to "college" on high. ;) However, I'm not sure about that myself. I see it as more of an avenue for, and invitation to, the reforming and transforming power of God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Obviously, this will greatly accelerate the growth process--to the degree it is sought and lived. Whether it automatically transcends the need for further lessons in this world as part of the growth process, and/or the need to remain and return as salt and light in this world is beyond me, but I don't think so.

The various permutations and implications of the foregoing models would take too long to discuss at this point, and I do not (by any means) have all the answers anyway. So, I’ll pass on to your next question: whether there are any organizations at present to discover or determine “who” had returned, and especially “on the look out” for the return of certain prominent personages from the past? As far as I can tell, the answer to this is no. However, such an organization would likely be secret anyway. So, you would have to search for it. In that regard, you might want to look into the Rosicrucians. I doubt they are involved in trying to locate famous spirits reborn (Biblical or otherwise), but they do believe in reincarnation from a Christian or at least quasi-christian perspective.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--There are a variety of Rosicrucian groups. I have no idea which would be best, or the best for your purposes.
Click to expand...


Thank you for this in depth reply! I will have to reread it a few times. A lot to take in! It’s funny you mentioned life could be a school of sorts. I’ve heard the lds describe life as a school before myself. Very informative read here
 
Hi 373,

You're welcome. When you get a chance, check out some of the resources. I don't take any one secular source as complete proof of anything. However, there is a cross-section of information/conclusions that keep showing up too often to be ignored. So, do some sampling and see what you think seems most reliable and most supported by the bulk of the testimony. This is also not infallible, but it can at least lead you to some general, albeit tentative, conclusions.

Cordially,
S&S
 
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