Is it true that more evolved souls have harder lives?
- Thread starter Obie
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BriarRose
Senior Registered
Sorry, Owl. It's an interesting dialectic, but your argument doesn't resonate with me. This is really not a debate that can be won or lost.
Does anyone remember a life where they were less evolved, for the lack of a better word, following a life where they were wiser, kinder, better people? Conversely, does anyone remember a life where they made progress, following on the heels of one of questionable social value? I don't equate education with soul evolution, because some of the wisest, most evolved souls that I've known had almost none.
Does anyone remember a life where they were less evolved, for the lack of a better word, following a life where they were wiser, kinder, better people? Conversely, does anyone remember a life where they made progress, following on the heels of one of questionable social value? I don't equate education with soul evolution, because some of the wisest, most evolved souls that I've known had almost none.
dking777
Senior Registered
Between the age of six and 12 (6 years) and during height of my 'out of body' and into the light 'near-death experiences' - this was the topic I tried to speak about the most often with adults. Time didn't exist on the other side as we know it. I spent many hours trying to explain the concept that time wasn't moving 'forward' (like sands through the hourglass) as much as all events were simultaneous. I didn't know the different between past and future. I would talk about my future lives as well as the future lives of family members as if it was in the past - and - already done.Aelfgyva said:
When I was around 10, I came up with the concept of 'moving' backwards - to move forwards. If most people thought that you lived so many lives on the wheel of reincarnation - then they would consider points A and B - and point A being the first incarnation and B being the last incarnation. When you die and have a life review - it is not given in 'chronological order' as much as you view it from the 'point of death' to the point of entry. You view it backwards. (As a child - this was the natural remembrance of it. As I got older - I would shift it mentally to match up with my mental mind. I read a researcher who compared the NDE's of adult and of children and this was one of the discoveries the researcher made.)
I found a quote about 'suffering' and Hinduism.
So the theory in ancient times was - the soul was eternal and free from suffering. Suffering was an 'illusion' caused by what the ancients refereed to as 'maya.' To overcome suffering was a path to 'higher consciousness' or what some may call the 'collective unconsciousness.' As a child, (6 y/o - 12 y/o) I never viewed the 'soul' as being 'manifested' in me - as much as it was 'attached' to me on a psychic level. (I don't know that I would have been aware of this - if it hadn't been for my many NDE's which I would 'forget' shortly after they passed from sight.)
During this stage in my childhood - I looked at the natural flow or 'progression' through the 'earthly plane' as going from point B to point A. There is a starting point on the other side where you are going to end up in 'time' -----> but the under current had an opposite direction in 'spirit <-----. It didn't bother me when people said they couldn't remember their 'past lives.' What I couldn't understand during this stage was how in the world people forgot about their 'future lives.'
After adolescence - this concept became too much for my own mental mind and I buried it in the undertow of my own unconscious mind. It didn't jive with the natural and earthly flow of human life. I can recall three times in my adult life when it resurfaced again and it shocked my mental mind to the point I didn't want to think about it and quickly buried it again. (The fact that future lives were already lived and done.)
Suffering is not something you inherit from the soul (from life time to life time) as much as it is something you inherit from the physical world. From my perspective - it wasn't a race to the finish with an individuals gain was of importance as much as it was a collective group consciousness effort to evolve 'humanities' consciousness as a whole - rather than the individual. It was a 'we' process on the other side - and not a 'me' process. So for me, I think the idea of trying to 'evolve' the 'soul' is maya. The soul is eternal and without the handicap and limits of time as we know it.
Sincerely,
DKing
MaritaMari
Senior Registered
Evolution is a term referred to physical evolution. When it comes to the evolution of the soul it can be understood only in comparison to your own soul, not to the souls of others or to society and humans in general. Still, even in the case of evolution of an individual soul can we really talk about evolution in the way scientists talk about physical evolution? If we are talking about the adaptation to the physical environment in the case of physical evolution, what should we talk about in the case of soul evolution? It is involved in relation to what? Social standards? Socially acceptable behavior and way of thinking? Socially praised virtues?
If we are not talking about what is socially accepted and what is not, than we should think only of what is accepted for the individual person. Can an individual person evolve in relation only to themselves? One can certainly change, that is for sure, and that can be both good and bad for that person. I'll have to make a little pause here and say that wham we use the word "evolution" we think of two essentially different meanings. Because the evolution of the soul should mean that that the "evolved" soul is a soul that became both better and wiser. And again, we have to ask the same question - better or wiser in comparison to who or what? What is good or better for one person can be completely unthinkable for another and what is wise for ones can be considered utterly stupid by others. So how exactly can we talk about the evolution of the soul when no such definition of what is good and what is bad, what is wise and what is not can be made?
If we are not talking about what is socially accepted and what is not, than we should think only of what is accepted for the individual person. Can an individual person evolve in relation only to themselves? One can certainly change, that is for sure, and that can be both good and bad for that person. I'll have to make a little pause here and say that wham we use the word "evolution" we think of two essentially different meanings. Because the evolution of the soul should mean that that the "evolved" soul is a soul that became both better and wiser. And again, we have to ask the same question - better or wiser in comparison to who or what? What is good or better for one person can be completely unthinkable for another and what is wise for ones can be considered utterly stupid by others. So how exactly can we talk about the evolution of the soul when no such definition of what is good and what is bad, what is wise and what is not can be made?
SkyeSpitfire
Probationary
I try to avoid philosophical discussions because they tend to go on for ages, but isn't it obvious? 'Evolved' in the soul sense is the soul that encompasses all those virtues that are practically saint-like qualities, a quiet, modest determination to literally change the world. Obviously these humans would have their flaws because all humans have flaws - but I'm talking about souls that have compassion, kindness, dedication, wisdom, understanding, faith, confidence, etc, the list goes on, and such virtues are rare to the point that these are the individuals who end up changing social hang-ups or moving mankind in different directions by showing all that compassion and courage and setting our priorities straight.
Morals didn't just spring up out of nowhere - there's a reason we recoil in horror when we see someone being tortured or brutally murdered and there's a reason why we smile when we hear of one good deed to another. Suffering directly links to these emotions - the argument that one person's suffering may be another person's joy is irrelevant because we are all different and we all suffer at different levels - but the process and destination is the same. And a quality such as wisdom, for example, can't be attained without suffering or exposure to suffering. A quality such as compassion cannot exist without suffering. A quality such as courage can't be put into effect without witnessing suffering and having the balls to do something about it.
These virtues are pointless without suffering in this world - hence an evolved soul will understand the necessity of suffering, the necessity of nurturing those virtues and finally the necessity of alleviating that suffering with those same virtues. If we start questioning morals, what is good and what is bad, we suddenly find we don't know where we stand or what the hell to do and I don't think that should be entertained at all.
A perfect example of what I consider a highly evolved soul would be Jose Rizal, the national hero of the Philippines. That man had no hatred in his heart, but compassion, courage, wisdom and a quiet determination to do what's right. He believed in the importance of educating oneself so that he may be respected among all those who consider education the height of intelligence and thus he expanded his influence throughout the world. Ultimately, he ended up suffering and dying for his beliefs at a young age, executed by a government that disliked the very qualities that made him a hero.
Morals didn't just spring up out of nowhere - there's a reason we recoil in horror when we see someone being tortured or brutally murdered and there's a reason why we smile when we hear of one good deed to another. Suffering directly links to these emotions - the argument that one person's suffering may be another person's joy is irrelevant because we are all different and we all suffer at different levels - but the process and destination is the same. And a quality such as wisdom, for example, can't be attained without suffering or exposure to suffering. A quality such as compassion cannot exist without suffering. A quality such as courage can't be put into effect without witnessing suffering and having the balls to do something about it.
These virtues are pointless without suffering in this world - hence an evolved soul will understand the necessity of suffering, the necessity of nurturing those virtues and finally the necessity of alleviating that suffering with those same virtues. If we start questioning morals, what is good and what is bad, we suddenly find we don't know where we stand or what the hell to do and I don't think that should be entertained at all.
A perfect example of what I consider a highly evolved soul would be Jose Rizal, the national hero of the Philippines. That man had no hatred in his heart, but compassion, courage, wisdom and a quiet determination to do what's right. He believed in the importance of educating oneself so that he may be respected among all those who consider education the height of intelligence and thus he expanded his influence throughout the world. Ultimately, he ended up suffering and dying for his beliefs at a young age, executed by a government that disliked the very qualities that made him a hero.
MaritaMari
Senior Registered
What is exactly a saint-like quality? Because, lets face it, what you consider saint-like quality does not have to be the same as I do, nor does a third person has to have the same notion of saint-like quality as you and I have.
Not everyone recoils in horror when they see torture, in fact, many people like it and even get aroused by it. You may say that those people are psychopaths, yes, but we must think not only inside our culture's frame of mind, but also that of other cultures. There were cultures throughout the history that practiced human sacrifice. They obviously didn't think it was wrong, evil or sinful and didn't recoil in horror when they scarified children and pulled a still beating hart out of human's body.
Also, what might be considered a good deed in one culture can be a tremendous offense in another, and not only that. You may find something a good deed while at the same time I don't. We simply cannot think of something that majority accepts as socially convenient or acceptable or even moral as the Universal truth, the one and only. The only Universal truth that I can think of is that we die but then again, with the possibility that nothing of this is real, that nothing exists, that maybe we are just part of someone's mind, someone's dream, maybe even my own, or yours... can we really say that we KNOW something about this world? That we know how it functions? That we know what is good and what is bad? And if the whole world believed that something was good and only one person in this whole world didn't, we couldn't say that it was Universal, because not everyone believed in it. And then again, it is belief, not a fact, and beliefs are as different as every single person is from each other.
And one more thing, when we question morals we find out more about the real nature of this world and what Nature itself is consisted of. We do not delude ourselves with accepting what others tell us as truth, we seek the truth for ourselves. And yes, some may find themselves confused and they may not be able to get rid of that confusion, but it is only because in their search for the truth they shun off one guidance and seek to find another, not realizing that we don't need guidance. We are our own guides.
Not everyone recoils in horror when they see torture, in fact, many people like it and even get aroused by it. You may say that those people are psychopaths, yes, but we must think not only inside our culture's frame of mind, but also that of other cultures. There were cultures throughout the history that practiced human sacrifice. They obviously didn't think it was wrong, evil or sinful and didn't recoil in horror when they scarified children and pulled a still beating hart out of human's body.
Also, what might be considered a good deed in one culture can be a tremendous offense in another, and not only that. You may find something a good deed while at the same time I don't. We simply cannot think of something that majority accepts as socially convenient or acceptable or even moral as the Universal truth, the one and only. The only Universal truth that I can think of is that we die but then again, with the possibility that nothing of this is real, that nothing exists, that maybe we are just part of someone's mind, someone's dream, maybe even my own, or yours... can we really say that we KNOW something about this world? That we know how it functions? That we know what is good and what is bad? And if the whole world believed that something was good and only one person in this whole world didn't, we couldn't say that it was Universal, because not everyone believed in it. And then again, it is belief, not a fact, and beliefs are as different as every single person is from each other.
And one more thing, when we question morals we find out more about the real nature of this world and what Nature itself is consisted of. We do not delude ourselves with accepting what others tell us as truth, we seek the truth for ourselves. And yes, some may find themselves confused and they may not be able to get rid of that confusion, but it is only because in their search for the truth they shun off one guidance and seek to find another, not realizing that we don't need guidance. We are our own guides.
SkyeSpitfire
Probationary
Can we not clutch at straws? Why don't you just tell me your idea of 'saint-like' qualities and I'll tell you mine? And I have my own ideas about people who get a kick out of watching people suffering because I'm pretty certain our souls aren't the only entities existing in this world.
Just because some people get aroused (if you mean sexually) by torture, it doesn't mean they like it or wouldn't feel sickened by it if they found themselves party to it. And I don't think those people are psychopaths at all, they just have their own fantasies which they are entitled to. The majority of people with those fantasies don't carry them out or they do it in a mutually safe environment between two consenting people - or three or four, whatever. The people that act on it without conscience are rare and, like I said, that's not just the soul acting of its own accord. And then there are those who do want to act on it, but don't, and are generally restricted by fear of repercussion from an evolved society that has MORALS and frowns on something that causes obvious suffering to a victim.
You seem to think that the obvious pain and suffering of a human being boils down to the way a culture views it - didn't I say that evolved souls tend to have magnified qualities of love, compassion, wisdom etc etc, which are the ultimate weapons that alleviate suffering? So what's the difference between a culture from hundreds, thousands of years back that advocated it and a soul that advocates it? Both aren't evolved. Hence we have evolved as a civilization and continue to, challenging blatant acts that cause suffering round the world; haven't you noticed that human sacrifice is not generally deemed as acceptable in modern society, even in very remote places of the world? Some places are more evolved than others, simple as that.
You appear to be under the impression that only the opinion of the perpetrator matters in regard to culture, not the victim, when you say their cultures don't have a problem with it. I'm pretty sure the victim who is actually suffering and their families would be recoiling in horror. Perhaps you could change your word to 'authority' as opposed to 'society'.
So tell me something you consider a good deed and I'll tell you if I agree or not?
So we don't know what is good and what is bad. We don't know if we're real or if we're in the matrix. We don't know what to believe because we all believe in different things. Well, it sounds like we haven't got a leg to stand on! I'm really curious to know how this way of thinking is actually productive. I like to spend less time worrying about the Universal truth and more time concentrating on Immediate truth.
Just because some people get aroused (if you mean sexually) by torture, it doesn't mean they like it or wouldn't feel sickened by it if they found themselves party to it. And I don't think those people are psychopaths at all, they just have their own fantasies which they are entitled to. The majority of people with those fantasies don't carry them out or they do it in a mutually safe environment between two consenting people - or three or four, whatever. The people that act on it without conscience are rare and, like I said, that's not just the soul acting of its own accord. And then there are those who do want to act on it, but don't, and are generally restricted by fear of repercussion from an evolved society that has MORALS and frowns on something that causes obvious suffering to a victim.
You seem to think that the obvious pain and suffering of a human being boils down to the way a culture views it - didn't I say that evolved souls tend to have magnified qualities of love, compassion, wisdom etc etc, which are the ultimate weapons that alleviate suffering? So what's the difference between a culture from hundreds, thousands of years back that advocated it and a soul that advocates it? Both aren't evolved. Hence we have evolved as a civilization and continue to, challenging blatant acts that cause suffering round the world; haven't you noticed that human sacrifice is not generally deemed as acceptable in modern society, even in very remote places of the world? Some places are more evolved than others, simple as that.
You appear to be under the impression that only the opinion of the perpetrator matters in regard to culture, not the victim, when you say their cultures don't have a problem with it. I'm pretty sure the victim who is actually suffering and their families would be recoiling in horror. Perhaps you could change your word to 'authority' as opposed to 'society'.
So tell me something you consider a good deed and I'll tell you if I agree or not?
So we don't know what is good and what is bad. We don't know if we're real or if we're in the matrix. We don't know what to believe because we all believe in different things. Well, it sounds like we haven't got a leg to stand on! I'm really curious to know how this way of thinking is actually productive. I like to spend less time worrying about the Universal truth and more time concentrating on Immediate truth.
Aelfgyva
Senior Member
The Monkey and the Fish...
Good morning dking777...you write,
"Time didn't exist on the other side as we know it. I spent many hours trying to explain the concept that time wasn't moving 'forward' (like sands through the hourglass) as much as all events were simultaneous. I didn't know the different between past and future. I would talk about my future lives as well as the future lives of family members as if it was in the past - and - already done."
This is so true for me...I've always said jokingly, “When I come back, it won't be in the future!” I understand you fully, you are much more eloquent then I am...I struggle with 4 different languages, sometimes I have a hard time finding the words to explain myself.
BriarRose...I do have memories of a more advanced and enlightened life followed ( again...chronological earth time ) by a life of totally disaster, which again may speak for the theory that “time” does not move forward...on our soul level.
I would also like to address the relativity of suffering...because I believe each soul is as individual as each snowflake, it is not possible for me to even define the word “ suffering”. Having lived in many countries in my life now, I know how life events can be seen through the eyes and souls of other cultures. Of course, I myself am shocked by many things in our world today and try to do my best to ease what I see as “suffering”, but must also except the fact that there are others who do not interpret “suffering” as I do. There is a famous quote about a monkey who thinks that a little fish is suffering and drowning in water and therefore “saves” his life (from the perspective of the monkey...) by pulling the fish out of water and setting him in the tree...which for the fish, was deadly, but the monkey had the feeling he was easing “suffering”. In my opinion, “suffering” is not definable...especially where the soul is concerned, I believe it does not exist.
Good morning dking777...you write,
"Time didn't exist on the other side as we know it. I spent many hours trying to explain the concept that time wasn't moving 'forward' (like sands through the hourglass) as much as all events were simultaneous. I didn't know the different between past and future. I would talk about my future lives as well as the future lives of family members as if it was in the past - and - already done."
This is so true for me...I've always said jokingly, “When I come back, it won't be in the future!” I understand you fully, you are much more eloquent then I am...I struggle with 4 different languages, sometimes I have a hard time finding the words to explain myself.
BriarRose...I do have memories of a more advanced and enlightened life followed ( again...chronological earth time ) by a life of totally disaster, which again may speak for the theory that “time” does not move forward...on our soul level.
I would also like to address the relativity of suffering...because I believe each soul is as individual as each snowflake, it is not possible for me to even define the word “ suffering”. Having lived in many countries in my life now, I know how life events can be seen through the eyes and souls of other cultures. Of course, I myself am shocked by many things in our world today and try to do my best to ease what I see as “suffering”, but must also except the fact that there are others who do not interpret “suffering” as I do. There is a famous quote about a monkey who thinks that a little fish is suffering and drowning in water and therefore “saves” his life (from the perspective of the monkey...) by pulling the fish out of water and setting him in the tree...which for the fish, was deadly, but the monkey had the feeling he was easing “suffering”. In my opinion, “suffering” is not definable...especially where the soul is concerned, I believe it does not exist.
Spatz
Senior Registered
Well, the idea of what 'evolution' might be in a soul is clearly pretty murky, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any ideas as to what an 'evolved' soul would be, especially in comparison to one that is not so 'evolved'. In any case, I'm not interested in categorizing the states of others, especially the spiritual states. And to call the spiritual state of another something so denigrating as 'unevolved'- even if they have lived or are living a life that is opposed morally to mine- is never something I'd ever appoint myself able to do. I'll leave that at that.
But, like most might, I do share the viewpoint that we are all shaped in some way by our experiences. Whether an event was 10 years or 1000 years ago, pleasant or traumatic, clear in memory or not recalled at all, methinks it all matters in making us who we are this time around. And so in this manner I could stretch the basic concept of evolution in its biological definition to something that applies to the spiritual. Change in a characteristic of ourselves over time might be something that we're all able to note as something feasible, even if it's something basic as affinity for a language or something as marked as our personal confidence or awareness of self.
But even if I could manage to make some sort of sense out of the concept as above, perhaps a better word than 'evolution' could be found or coined in order to apply to the spiritual. I'd be reticent to mention a phrase soul evolution, even just for the sake of not wanting to be misunderstood.
But, like most might, I do share the viewpoint that we are all shaped in some way by our experiences. Whether an event was 10 years or 1000 years ago, pleasant or traumatic, clear in memory or not recalled at all, methinks it all matters in making us who we are this time around. And so in this manner I could stretch the basic concept of evolution in its biological definition to something that applies to the spiritual. Change in a characteristic of ourselves over time might be something that we're all able to note as something feasible, even if it's something basic as affinity for a language or something as marked as our personal confidence or awareness of self.
But even if I could manage to make some sort of sense out of the concept as above, perhaps a better word than 'evolution' could be found or coined in order to apply to the spiritual. I'd be reticent to mention a phrase soul evolution, even just for the sake of not wanting to be misunderstood.
BriarRose
Senior Registered
Thank you for the response, Aelfgyva. Lately, I've been trying to wrap my mind around the idea that time is not linear. Progress is being made, because I can imagine it being true. Your experience goes a long way toward convincing me.
I do believe that absolute good and absolute evil exist in our world. The idea may, indeed, be an illusion in the universe's paradigm of reality. I am not privileged to understand the inner workings of the universe. But, the idea of good and evil are a necessary convention if humans are to function together as societies. I have read many accounts of life reviews where the soul experienced the pain and suffering that it inflicted on others. If inflicting pain and suffering were acceptable, why would that happen? The logical conclusion would be that the soul would learn not to harm others. A lab rat learns to make other choices, if it receives an electric shock when it makes the "wrong" choice. As Above, so Below?
I do believe that absolute good and absolute evil exist in our world. The idea may, indeed, be an illusion in the universe's paradigm of reality. I am not privileged to understand the inner workings of the universe. But, the idea of good and evil are a necessary convention if humans are to function together as societies. I have read many accounts of life reviews where the soul experienced the pain and suffering that it inflicted on others. If inflicting pain and suffering were acceptable, why would that happen? The logical conclusion would be that the soul would learn not to harm others. A lab rat learns to make other choices, if it receives an electric shock when it makes the "wrong" choice. As Above, so Below?
Owl
Super-alt Mitglied
That is an interesting concept,and I have thought as well many times that time is not linear, it´s just easier to think it is. However, as you say in your signature "Time... is there such a thing?" probably not. Time, as many other concepts we tend to take for granted, is just a human construction. I think we tend to think of time as linear because of the "cause-consequence" type of human thinking. So we think of time as our lives going by, what we did before is in the past, to the left, and what we are going to do is in the future, to the right. Right now we are in a single dot between past and future. Now, let's say that through meditation, regression etc we are alive to re-experience a memory, then we would be a dot but somewhere more to the left than we consider we are now. We would have gone "back in time". Also, under some deep trance meditations supposedly we can experience a lot of things that would take many years in just a small amount of human "real time" minutes. Therefore its true, time does not really exist outside of our minds and as many other things is a human concept.Aelfgyva said:
Now, is it possible to really go back in time? Can I die right now and reborn in the Middle Ages? If we consider that as a possibility then we have no choice but to assume multiple dimensions exist ,or that free will does not exist, or a bunch of other assumptions that would fit another thread better. Ends up being a brain twister.
Now, to answer what you were saying about being "wise" and then being "not so wise", as we have discussed before in this thread, wisdom can only be in comparison with ourselves or the morality/idiosyncrasy of the times and places we were born. As everything, wisdom is relative. To be able to judge my past actions as wise or unwise I would need a lot of information about the circumstances surrounding the event I'm judging (because a person cannot be 100% wise or 100% unwise) and maybe right now I say "If it happened now I would of acted more wisely" but then something similar happens and I do the same.
Summarizing, even if time is not linear, and assuming that multiple dimensions do not exist, we keep in our soul the memory or imprint of the actions we have performed and the experiences we were exposed to. Considering that wisdom may be related to the way we react to certain events taking into consideration our previous experiences, those reactions can only be deemed wise or unwise by our personal values, that may or may not reflect our society´s. Therefore, I guess to have a "wise" life followed by an "unwise" life would only depend on what we judge as wise or unwise now, that may or may not be what we judged as wise or unwise in the past, or how we will see it in the future.
Is it possible then to have a wise life followed by an unwise life? YES, but that solely depends on our personal values right now, not of our previous experiences or a universal concept of wisdom.
Aelfgyva
Senior Member
Red Wine Time...and the Evening News...
Dear BriarRose...Dear Owl,
It is evening in Holland now and I am relaxing from a busy day! I will take both of your coments with me to bed tonight and when I'm fresh in the morning...I would love to answer both of you! Wishing you both a fine day...till tomorrow!
Dear BriarRose...Dear Owl,
It is evening in Holland now and I am relaxing from a busy day! I will take both of your coments with me to bed tonight and when I'm fresh in the morning...I would love to answer both of you! Wishing you both a fine day...till tomorrow!
Aelfgyva
Senior Member
Acceptable???...
BriarRose...you write:
You also write:
I am also not a believer in Karma, which frees me then from the fear of causing pain or suffering...or on the other hand, doing good deeds to get into..."heaven".
My goodness... cover face I hope I don't came across as a person who has no feelings...I am a mother and grandmother and to bare a child causes some of the must suffering a human can go through, but I think without this great pain...there could not be this great love...and in the end...I think love is all there is...
BriarRose...you write:
I am a simple girl, also not privileged in the ways of the universe and my mind is not able to comprehend the plan of “The One”...I try not to fall into the trap of forcing what I believe to be true on others, that is the problem in our world today, we are willing to kill each other for what we believe is “Right”.
You also write:
O.K...my thoughts...” Acceptable” in my opinion, is a human emotion, the soul not knowing what this word means. When we choose a life here, we grow and learn what our environment on Earth, our social communities, our religions, our parents...etc... find “acceptable” or not. Therefore, we also learn, according to our current surroundings, the meaning of suffering and guilt (again cultures and beliefs differ). It is no surprising to me then, that when a memory of a past live accrues , it carries with it all the emotions that we have "learned" to find “acceptable” for our immediate surroundings. I have again, put this very simply...I'm sure I don't have a real clue as to what's going on...these are just my thoughts!
I am also not a believer in Karma, which frees me then from the fear of causing pain or suffering...or on the other hand, doing good deeds to get into..."heaven".
My goodness... cover face I hope I don't came across as a person who has no feelings...I am a mother and grandmother and to bare a child causes some of the must suffering a human can go through, but I think without this great pain...there could not be this great love...and in the end...I think love is all there is...
Aelfgyva
Senior Member
Reflection...
Hello Owl...you write:
And as for suffering... Paul Watzlawick and his theory of radical constructivism believed...we all construct our own world and that people create their own suffering in the very act of trying to fix their emotional problems...I'm not sure I agree with him 100%, but his theory is very interesting.
Hello Owl...you write:
I agree with you here...if I understood you correctly...”wise “and “unwise” are only relative taken the situation in comparison to another situation or from the perspective from which you look now, reflecting on memories from past or future...if you believe as I do that there is no such thing as time.
And as for suffering... Paul Watzlawick and his theory of radical constructivism believed...we all construct our own world and that people create their own suffering in the very act of trying to fix their emotional problems...I'm not sure I agree with him 100%, but his theory is very interesting.
BriarRose
Senior Registered
That's a good answer, Aelfgyva. It would be nice to be free of Karma, and the fear of doing harm. I do fear doing harm, but not because I fear punishment - I just don't want to make anyone suffer. I have, all too often. If soul evolution were to be a "fact" instead of a supposition, perhaps you have moved beyond the level of experiencing much Karma. I believe in Karma, because I see it unfold in my life, everyday. The consequences follow on the heels of my thoughts and actions in short order. But, each soul's experience is different. I, as always, enjoyed reading your thoughts.
Hirsch
New Member
It's a good question, but it rely's on a lot of assumptions. It assumes that evolved souls exist, it assumes there is an ulimate good vs. evil scale that applies to all souls and that some are inherently 'better' or 'more enlightened' then others.Obie said:
It also assumes that there is an end-game; that existence has a goal of some sort - a finish line we're striving for.
That's a lot of assumption; so much so that the question is unfortunately unanswerable. It's more a thought exercise and there are no solid answers or one shot explanations: none of us can even confirm 'evolved souls' exist no matter how much we may want to.
But hypothetically speaking if an evolved soul does exist; what would be the objective of a harder life? Further growth is a common answer but for what end? What is the growth for? The sake of growth?
In that case growth without goal is useless.
So in order to determine if 'evolved souls' have what could be quantified as a for them relatively difficulty life ( for a life that is easy for me may not be easy for you); we first have to nail down if there is even a point to 'evolving'. Why would growing be desirable?
Perhaps there is a final reconning at the end of all things in which that knowledge will be invaluable for creating a new existence. Or maybe it works like a seive - sorting those who fail to make the grade from entering the next stage of existence. Maybe the point is not personal growth but universal growth. That could be it as well.
They are all possibilities.
Then there is the non-linear nature of time, something supported by physics, alternate dimensions which may also be supported by physics ( can you be evolved in one dimension and not another?)
For example, is my life now harder than my last one? No, and yes. I had a position of relative power in my last life, but it came at a horrible price. Now I have no power and struggle to make ends meet but I can do so with a clear conscience. Some people may feel some sort of 'pain' as retribution for ill deeds but I have never felt this at all between my last life and this one.
I feel exactly the same actually. But a few things have changed, and will likely change again as I adapt to each life.
As was also pointed out earlier about 'evolve' as a term
From the Oxford Dictionary
Evolve: develop gradually, especially from a simple to a more complex form.
(as I assume we're not talking about chemistry and 'gassy souls':laugh
So then evolved souls should only mean, souls with gained complexity required over a longer period of time. Someone's soul can be complicatedly evil or complicatedly good. Complexity is neutral on a good / evil spectrum which may or may not even exist ( which does not in my opinion )
In other words, it's complicated.
Obie; I wouldn't worry about it. This life is this life and well, we're here now. I don't mean this in a blithe way - but in a way that instead of worrying about evolving and whether the next life will be harder or easier it may be more benefitial to sort out this life first and make it the best one possible.
Because anything we do on this side of the eternal is all conjecture and heresay; we're guessing in the dark when we could be dancing in the light if we wanted to. We can debate until we're blue in the face whether evolved souls even exist and not get anywhere. How can you say how an evolved soul lives if you can't verify they even exist outside of rumour?
Your guess is literally as good as mine.
There is not a person on earth who can give you a solid answer to your question of whether evolved souls lead harder lives.
But if you must, must have an answer the best bet may be to reason it out, contemnplate it a bit and see what makes sense for you and come to your own conclusions, ones that you can live with, ones that improve your life. Remember; whoever told you that evolved souls lead harder lives was guessing when they said that too.
(and going 'bad' is too much trouble for everyone and not usually as much fun as it sounds like.
. )May be not for all evolved souls but I think this is true in 2 cases.
1.. when the purpose of evolved soul is so high and it needs so much to reach that goal.
2.. when the karmic structure of the soul is so strong (developed according to the circumstances of previous life) and it works as a hurdle for the soul to fit into updated environment.
1.. when the purpose of evolved soul is so high and it needs so much to reach that goal.
2.. when the karmic structure of the soul is so strong (developed according to the circumstances of previous life) and it works as a hurdle for the soul to fit into updated environment.
SeekerOfKnowledge
Learner
I thought the truly "evolved" souls would have achieved inner peace like the Dalai Lama or Jesus or Buddha or other such people so that they would be full of compassion, maybe would have to endure hardships, but they won't suffer. They won't struggle as they will know their purpose from early childhood and walk their path from early childhood.
I have read somewhere that souls about to reach a new "stage" of development will struggle hard. Makes sense, in a way (even though I am not sure what to think of all these labels and theories). Would explain why people interested in spirituality who believe in reincarnation often still are unhappy, frustrated and have a hard time to find the "purpose" they seek. Another thing is weltschmerz. When you have developed compassion, but cannot handle all the cruelty in this world yet. Or when you are learning to love, unconditionally, but still are in the process or learning. Would be all too easy to confuse unconditional love with self-sacrifice. When you are learning to see beyond, but sometimes still identify yourself with your body, the image others have of you, your deeds or your mind. This can cause inner struggles, of course.
I have read somewhere that souls about to reach a new "stage" of development will struggle hard. Makes sense, in a way (even though I am not sure what to think of all these labels and theories). Would explain why people interested in spirituality who believe in reincarnation often still are unhappy, frustrated and have a hard time to find the "purpose" they seek. Another thing is weltschmerz. When you have developed compassion, but cannot handle all the cruelty in this world yet. Or when you are learning to love, unconditionally, but still are in the process or learning. Would be all too easy to confuse unconditional love with self-sacrifice. When you are learning to see beyond, but sometimes still identify yourself with your body, the image others have of you, your deeds or your mind. This can cause inner struggles, of course.
My answer to this thread's question is the same as if one asked "Is it true that more evolved (whatever this may mean) people have more nightmares?" No.
I believe that most of these theories err because they result from rationalization and emotion. They try to apply human interpretation to a non-human realm. They put the humanity at the center of the non-physical Universe, the same way as some "scientists" thought the Earth to be the center of the physical Universe, because it looked that way.
I believe that most of these theories err because they result from rationalization and emotion. They try to apply human interpretation to a non-human realm. They put the humanity at the center of the non-physical Universe, the same way as some "scientists" thought the Earth to be the center of the physical Universe, because it looked that way.
I don’t consider teachers more ‘evolved’ than students. It’s just a role we play.
It’s about gradual amnesia and nothing else.
It’s about gradual amnesia and nothing else.
There and back again
Senior Member
Such answers can be found by those who go through the effort to find them however such is not to be found here otherwise it is all opinions.
Obie,
There is an old saying. We are never given more than we can handle in life. So the life lessons we are learning in this lifetime are appropriate for the stage of spiritual development we are at. All of humanity is at different stages of spiritual development. From infant soul stage like that of primitive man in small groups or tribes scattered in parts of South America, Africa, ect.. to transcendental souls, like Christ, Buddha and Dalai lama ect.. Many on the planet today are transiting from late young soul stage to early mature. However there are small pockets of old souls out there scattered throughout the planet.
So what ever stage we happen to be at we are given life lessons that challenge us at that level of awareness so that we may grow and develop in soul consciousness and make the most of this given lifetime in the physical plane. This is how the soul evolves in consciousness over many lifetimes. So a soul that is at a mature or old soul stage will choose more complex souls lessons that earlier stages are not ready to handle yet. In doing so we learn to master our ability to create reality and be responsible for our karma and also be aware of others karma on a individual level as well as on a group level that we are involved with. As karma is not about punishment or reward but a learning tool to master our ability to handle and create reality from within be it here or on the higher dimensions. In turn the universe teaches us about divine love for all creatures and souls throughout the cosmos are in reality all inwardly connected to the source of all that is in the cosmos or what man terms as god.
Life will not always be hard, there will be times when things do smooth out for awhile and we can enjoy that moment life gives us. But we would not have the awareness to treasure those moments unless we experience the hard times as well. For everything here in this world has it's opposite as we live in the world of duality. So we must experience both of these states of being in order to be whole as complete as soul. The reason why we are here in the first place is so that the soul may know itself by it's own expereinces.
Peace and love to you.... Always.
P.
I'm sure that many sayings are just intended to make one feel better, be it one in some kind of distress, or one who's envious. It comes to mind the saying about being lucky (or not) in love, while being unlucky (or not) at making money.
kiyoko_moon418
Dreams and spirit
Newer or younger souls coudn't handle harder lives. When we get back to the spirit world, its all about what we learned down here. You will see the ones with the hardest lives and biggest challenges will be like rich people on earth, kind of bragging !
Kiyoko_moon
I kind of understand what you are trying to say. I think that (and this is just my opinion) is that souls that are still at a younger stage of spiritual development are trying to handle more basic life lessons in terms of survival in this physical dimension. Infant souls are learning to adapt to the human form and to the world around them like in primitive tribes in Africa, South America ect.. . There is an emphasis on very basic life-skills, both individually (food, shelter and so on) and as a family or small community (protection and reproduction). These are in fact souls that are experiencing their first incarnations as human beings since they have evolved an individualized ego now that is self aware and evolved away from the group state of consciousness of the wild animal kingdom.
The major lessons for the soul now are to do with experiencing oneself as a physical human being with one’s own needs and limitations, as well as interacting with a separate physical environment and with other physical beings, both caring and threatening. These soul lessons most of us have already learned long ago in our past lives however they can be just as hard as older soul stages such as mature and old soul. So in term of harder it is really more a matter of more complex lessons as the soul evolves in spiritual consciousness. When we cross over into the spirit world we take back with us the lessons learned. Older soul may be more rich in terms of more complex lessons learned however all souls are equal regardless of their spiritual evolutionary level of awareness. As we all come from divine love anyway.
One thing I have observed is that younger souls take on physical incarnations more quickly than do older souls. I'm sure this is because younger souls are eager to learn, evolve and grow more and want to get back into the game sooner. Older souls take far more time in general to incarnate as they do know more about the game involved and are some what tried of it all. ( kind of not this again!!!) So they plan out their incarnations more wisely working out the details so they get the most bang for there buck in a matter of speaking. In the end they are hoping to cycle off the physical dimension all together and reside instead on a more permanent bases on one of the higher dimensions of our universe. Only coming back again here as a transcendental soul as a teacher or master at some point in the future.
Peace and love.. P