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If I were you, would I be me?

Thanks Nightrain.


I believe all is interwoven. We (humans) all have our individual capacities, tasks and paths to walk but in the end collaboration is the highest achievement. Maybe once all the individual pieces will merge into a beautiful puzzle...could be...


Now to the next question: the egg or the chicken? :D
 
Nice little piece of writing. I like it.


Yes Nightrain. I also believe that ultimately 'we are all one'. Just as ultimately all our bodies came from the same mother, back in Africa somewhere many, many, ages ago, so our 'souls' are all made out of the same 'stuff' at some level.
 
ChrisR said:
But what laid it? :tongue: ;)
I'm having fun with this.


Somewhere in the distant past, a feathered ancestor of a small dinosaur laid an egg with a slight change in its DNA, which promulgated the existence of a new species called, "chicken", which had no teeth.


Ta-daaaa! ;)


-Nightrain
 
Thank you for sharing that, Nightrain, it was...unique. I don't have the right words to express everything I'm feeling right now, after reading that dialogue. It's exactly what I needed to read at this point in my life, trying to recover from so much negativity and hatred towards anything spiritual.


For the record, I hold the theory that the chicken and the egg both came off the assembly line together, and if we looked closely enough with our high-powered microscopes, we'd probably see, somewhere in the DNA of every chicken and egg, the words,"Made in Taiwan"!
 
sellingmysoul said:
For the record, I hold the theory that the chicken and the egg both came off the assembly line together, and if we looked closely enough with our high-powered microscopes, we'd probably see, somewhere in the DNA of every chicken and egg, the words,"Made in Taiwan"!
:laugh::laugh:Huzzah!:laugh::laugh:


-Nightrain
 
Thanks for sharing that, Nighttrain.


It is certainly an interesting way of looking at it but yes, ultimately we are all connected.


:)
 
Thanks for the link Nightrain. What an amazing concept! It has potential to answer many many questions. I would be interested in knowing what questions does it raise, though?


Thanks again,


AKP.
 
AKP said:
Thanks for the link Nightrain. What an amazing concept! It has potential to answer many many questions. I would be interested in knowing what questions does it raise, though?
Thanks again,


AKP.
Here's one:


If you reincarnate at any point in time and, like the person in the story, were to reincarnate to an earlier time post death, then it stands to reason that your soul would have memories of a "past" life in the future. Thus, if you were to be regressed, would you see things such as "cars" even though they would not exist in the life you currently inhabited?


Actually, I can think of a second question related to this; does anyone remember a past life relating to things that do not yet exist? :S
 
Well, I loved the concept, but believing in what I do I would have to hold the "you will reincarnate in 540 AD" out of the equation. At some point, however, I believe we are all interconnected, yes... :thumbsup:


Problem is that the concept of "no time" holds absolutely no match with the information that comes through mediumnically...
 
I, personally, don't believe we reincarnate back in time because, though time as we know does not exist in the spiritual realm, there is still a natural prgression of time in the physical realm. Each time we reincarnate here on Earth we step back across that line in which are bound by the natural ways of the physical world. If we were bouncing back and forth incarnating in time, there would be no progression to society or humankind's collective consciousness. If this were the case, people would be trying to invent automobiles and cell phones 2000 years ago.


I do think that we are all connected. To what extent, I don't know. I'm not ready to accept that I am you, but I do believe we are all part of God, or the creative consciousness, or whatever you want to call it. I believe that is what is meant by "we are all created in his image and likeness."
 
I pretty much agree with Truthseeker. One metaphor I consider valid is that "we are all sparks of God." We can all grow and become infinitely huge fires ourselves, but we are all sprung from the same original, primordial fire ... except that individual sparks aren't really different from each other and I think that souls are ... like pieces of the Mandelbrot set.
 
Hi- interesting dialog,


But for me...it's conjecture:

I have issue with this part:
"No, not yet. You're a fetus. You're still growing. Once you've lived every human life throughout all time, you will have grown enough to be born."
This thread - Karma is not punishment covers my thoughts on the subject -as well as a few others. Aili couldn't have said it better -

All of humankind is subject to the law of karma. Karma simply means “action.” Every action has a reaction. But, in my opinion, karma is not a “punishment”, only a requirement that you experience all that you create. ~~Ailish
 
Truthseeker, you and I are of equal minds here then... Another point is that, if indeed there were "no time" in the spiritual realms, then not even the cute dialogue that Nightrain shared could take place, for what would you call the interval between its beginning and end????? Some might read it faster, say in 15 seconds, others might take 60, but still it would have to be taken from start to finish, or it would not be possible at all. Were there "no time", there would be "no space", and the spiritual realms would be at a standstill...
 
Truthseeker said:
If we were bouncing back and forth incarnating in time, there would be no progression to society or humankind's collective consciousness. If this were the case, people would be trying to invent automobiles and cell phones 2000 years ago.
This succinctly sums up my view of that notion.
 
Hi Deborah,


Quite certainly "karma" would hold no purpose either if our "future lives" were happening simultaneously. Indeed we might prefer not to refer to karma as "punishment", but it is, IMHO, a question of "justice". Laws and justice are not necessarily one and same, but why would we judge it correct that someone should be sentenced to jail for a serious crime but not that one should respond karmically for their errors? If we humans hold a notion of "justice", so much greater and more perfect would have to be a "Divine Justice"...


;)
 
Charles Stuart said:
Quite certainly "karma" would hold no purpose either if our "future lives" were happening simultaneously. Indeed we might prefer not to refer to karma as "punishment", but it is, IMHO, a question of "justice". Laws and justice are not necessarily one and same, but why would we judge it correct that someone should be sentenced to jail for a serious crime but not that one should respond karmically for their errors? If we humans hold a notion of "justice", so much greater and more perfect would have to be a "Divine Justice"...


;)
Although I've entertained this concept, myself, for a short period; I do give more credence to the existence of separate identifiable identities for each of us. The dialogue presented would strike me as an exceedingly lonely existence, if we were all the same individual identity. We may be part of one whole entity; however, it may be that we all serve as individual partners in making up that entity.


As for karma, I did come to this Forum believing that it was the only thing that provided us with some satisfaction of justice. However, I now tend to believe that karma is best described as, that which wraps our souls and sets the stage for our own decisions. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that someone will receive their "just desserts". It really seems to be a matter repeating our mistakes until we, ourselves, realize the need to change.


-Nightrain
 
Nightrain1 said:
...karma is best described as, that which wraps our souls and sets the stage for our own decisions. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that someone will receive their "just desserts". It really seems to be a matter repeating our mistakes until we, ourselves, realize the need to change.
Yes, well said. That's pretty much how I see it. Well described. Karma is 'what we get up to' for better or for worse. :)
 
Charles Stuart said:
...Quite certainly "karma" would hold no purpose either if our "future lives" were happening simultaneously. Indeed we might prefer not to refer to karma as "punishment", but it is, IMHO, a question of "justice". Laws and justice are not necessarily one and same, but why would we judge it correct that someone should be sentenced to jail for a serious crime but not that one should respond karmically for their errors? If we humans hold a notion of "justice", so much greater and more perfect would have to be a "Divine Justice"... ;)
Charles, we have had this discussion before, but I say again, you see things very simplisticly and mechanically - as though life (lives) were some kind of clockwork or like a locomotive on a track. I see the whole process as more like clouds forming and then melting and blowing away, forming again, or like billowing smoke swirling up into the night from a fire, water rippling in a brook, to the ocean, forming rain, going round again.... I don't see it as something neat and geometric or, dare I say, 'linear'. :)


The whole process of life (lives) is chaotic and multi-dimensional and far more complex and complicated than we can possibly understand in the blinkered one-day-at-a-time reality that we necessarily experience in our mortal form. Things happen, cause creates effect, then other things happen in a fractal unfolding into eternity. It gets way too complex for us to follow it, but that does not mean it does not have its own logic and pattern - like smoke billowing from a fire.....


Although there may be a 'Deity' (however you conceive Her) directing things (who knows?), in my view, there does not have to be any 'Divine Justice' at all like some kind of 'Super Nanny' or cosmic puppet master pulling the strings of people's individual and multitudinous lives. It's just far too simplistic a view in my opinion. Personally, I think it's a bit of a cop out and people should step up and deal with responsibility for their own actions, endurance of their own bad luck, enjoyment of their own pleasures, suffering of their own pains and generally just get on with living their own lives. That's what we're here for after all.


Just because humans have come up with a justice system to punish 'criminals', it does not follow that the universe uses the same system to punish 'bad' behaviour. Why would it? What is 'bad' anyway? Who decides? Did the universe once torture and burn 'heretics against God' (however you conceive Her) because humans thought that was a good idea at the time? Did the Universe once sacrifice virgins to the Sun God, ditto? It makes no sense at all to assume that the Universe takes its queue from what humans get up to.


I like the idea posed in the original article that we are all 'one' and we are all just doing 'stuff', having experience, working it out, learning, growing, improving, making mistakes, testing things, hurting each other, deciding we don't like that very much, trying again... until we get to some point of spiritual maturity. Then it's on to the next thing, whatever that might be...
 
Beg to disagree, Tanguerra... IMHO we are here to learn from experience and to progress spiritually. This cannot be achieved without some form of "linearity", which in no way means "simplistic" or mechanical"...

Why would it? What is 'bad' anyway? Who decides?
The "Divine Justice" is present in all things, Tanguerra. This is very much one of the main purposes of reincarnation. Save rare cases of psycopathy, we ALL instinctively hold the notion of "right" and "wrong"...
 
The whole process of life (lives) is chaotic and multi-dimensional and far more complex and complicated than we can possibly understand in the blinkered one-day-at-a-time reality that we necessarily experience in our mortal form.
Again I must disagree. There is much than can be observed and concluded by a coherent observation of the facts, and not by imaginings and by what one wants to believe in or not.

It's just far too simplistic a view in my opinion.
I had a literary agent refuse my work using this same argument. I do have to laugh... :rolleyes:

Personally, I think it's a bit of a cop out and people should step up and deal with responsibility for their own actions, endurance of their own bad luck, enjoyment of their own pleasures, suffering of their own pains and generally just get on with living their own lives. That's what we're here for after all.
I agree, but what do you think is behind this if not karma?

Did the universe once torture and burn 'heretics against God' (however you conceive Her) because humans thought that was a good idea at the time? Did the Universe once sacrifice virgins to the Sun God, ditto? It makes no sense at all to assume that the Universe takes its queue from what humans get up to.
These are/were human flaws. Not "Divine" flaws...

I like the idea posed in the original article that we are all 'one' and we are all just doing 'stuff', having experience, working it out, learning, growing, improving, making mistakes, testing things, hurting each other, deciding we don't like that very much, trying again... until we get to some point of spiritual maturity.
Here I don't entirely disagree...

Then it's on to the next thing, whatever that might be...
The "next thing", as far as I know, are Higher Dimensions and more evolved worlds...
 
Hi Nightrain,


Sorry, I had missed your post...

As for karma, I did come to this Forum believing that it was the only thing that provided us with some satisfaction of justice. However, I now tend to believe that karma is best described as, that which wraps our souls and sets the stage for our own decisions. So, it doesn't necessarily mean that someone will receive their "just desserts". It really seems to be a matter repeating our mistakes until we, ourselves, realize the need to change.
Whatever term we might wish to use to describe it, it is based on recovering and balancing. "He who lives by the sword will by the sword be slain" and "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" are clear references to the karmic process even in the bible. I have shared here before the story of a man who spent three years in jail for a crime he had not commited, and cursed God a thousand times because he had been "injusticed", only to later find that he had indeed commited a crime in a past life for which he had gotten away with by letting another take the blame.


To "break out of the reel of karma" means to reach a level in which we no longer accumulate negative karma. "Enlightenment" has to do with knowledge, correctness of conduct and consideration for others, not "meditation". Even the "Commandments" are laws to prevent accumulating more negative karma, in particular regarding what we do to others, for indeed what we do to others we are also doing unto ourselves. In His/Her infinite mercy and justice (and I cannot understand a concern over gender for the "Universal Consciousness"), no Soul is condemned to a lifetime of eternal suffering, but we do, yes, respond karmically for our errors.


One last afterthought, Tanguerra: no matter how much you might like your "smoke" theory, you cannot return to yesterday nor can you instantly be "in the tomorrow". Why do you suppose that the spiritual realms should be any different???? And also, "space-time" is a consequence of the Creation just as smoke is a consequence of fire. To me, God/The Universal Consciousness is the Primary Cause of all things, which naturally would also englobe space-time...


In the umpteen mediumnic encounters I have had, including the ones in 12 years working as a medium in a spiritualist centre, all that I have shared here concerning this has been reinforced. We are born, live, die and are born again, and spend time in the spiritual realms "in between lives", until we have finally reached a degree of "enlightenment" in which we no longer need to undergo the trials and expiations of material life...


Charles
 
tanguerra said:
f clockwork or like a locomotive on a track. I see the whole process as more like clouds forming and then melting and blowing away, forming again, or like billowing smoke swirling up into the night from a fire, water rippling in a brook, to the ocean, forming rain, going round again.... I don't see it as something neat and geometric or, dare I say, 'linear'. :)
The whole process of life (lives) is chaotic and multi-dimensional and far more complex and complicated than we can possibly understand in the blinkered one-day-at-a-time reality that we necessarily experience in our mortal form..
That is exactly my belief, but i've never been able to articulate it that well.


It is a very left hemisphere [brain] orientated thing to think in a linear sequenced way and men are so much more left hemisphere dominant I think they really can;t help it.It is a shame that this way of thinking is prized above and beyond other ways of thinking.
 
tanguerra said:
Although there may be a 'Deity' (however you conceive Her) directing things (who knows?), in my view, there does not have to be any 'Divine Justice' at all like some kind of 'Super Nanny' or cosmic puppet master pulling the strings of people's individual and multitudinous lives. It's just far too simplistic a view in my opinion. Personally, I think it's a bit of a cop out and people should step up and deal with responsibility for their own actions, endurance of their own bad luck, enjoyment of their own pleasures, suffering of their own pains and generally just get on with living their own lives. That's what we're here for after all.
Just because humans have come up with a justice system to punish 'criminals', it does not follow that the universe uses the same system to punish 'bad' behaviour. Why would it? What is 'bad' anyway? Who decides? Did the universe once torture and burn 'heretics against God' (however you conceive Her) because humans thought that was a good idea at the time? Did the Universe once sacrifice virgins to the Sun God, ditto? It makes no sense at all to assume that the Universe takes its queue from what humans get up to.
Well said. I agree.


When I was younger I interpreted the whole karma issue differently than I do now. I used to view it as a rigid and linear process of "an eye for an eye." I no longer believe that because as you've pointed out "evil" and "justice" are both subjective to a certain degree. The concepts are based on societal norms, which are somewhat fluid. We also don't always know the intent behind any particular action, and intent is important. The only ones who are seeing the whole picture - intent, circumstances, motivation, etc. - are the soul and whatever divine deities may exist on the other side.


A good example of this would be Nazis. Which ones were evil? All of them? Some of them? A handful of them? Will they all burn in "hell?" (I don't believe in hell.) Who judges them? Do they judge themselves? If you have to be perfectly honest and judge your actions yourself, knowing everything that led you to do something that harmed others, wouldn't you be the harshest judge of all? What steps would you then want to take to learn how to make a different decision, and to make amends? That's the real meaning of karma, in my opinion. Learning and soul growth that is self-directed, though I think we get a lot of help from the other side in the planning and execution of life plans.


I have come to believe that Shakespeare was right: all the world's a stage. We're all participating in a production or school of sorts. We have chosen our basic roles ahead of time, though we're not scripted - improvisation is the rule rather than the exception. While it feels very, real - it is and yet it's not. What we experience and learn is real, but the role we play is not all that we really are.


We all (our souls) know this up front but we agree to pretend, to suspend disbelief, during our tenure here. If we didn't, it wouldn't work as intended.


That's my current thinking on the subject, for what it's worth.
 
Yes, nice writing, but......


A little far fetched.


I definitely agree that we are all connected to each other, as well as a source greater than ourselves. I believe that our relationship with this higher source (God, Higher Power, etc., whatever one chooses to call it/him/her), is very personal. In that respect, it is just Higher Power and me.


However, the author wrote that each person in the world is a different incarnation of oneself....if that's true, then that means only I exist and you do not, and I am talking to myself only. Seems like it would be a pretty lonely world out there.


I think others can be our mirrors, that we learn from one another.
 
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