I do not believe a person living now can be held responsible

[andrewx]

I would like to add an opinion here, in addition to the question about telephone numbers I just asked: I do not believe that a person living now can be held responsible for what happened in another lifetime. The person in the other lifetime that did terrible things is dead.

Look, I would not want to find out that a past life incarnation of myself was a Nazi SS officer. Being a member of Stalin's secret police is also something that would bother me, as well as being part of any totalitarian regime. However, I would not feel guilt about it; I can not control anything that happened in a past life.

Laurasia, please do not consume yourself with guilt. You did not get involved in Nazi atrocities. Hans Bothmann, who is now dead, is the person who did so. Feeling guilty about a past life does not accomplish anything.

Respectfully,

Andrewx

 

[soulfreindly]

Hello Andrew


I think a person should own any guilt from a past life or a present one. This is the nature of personal growth -- taking responsibility for ones actions, and making amends. It is also the responsibility of the victim to learn to stand up and fight against any negativity as well.


I think if someone has done something wrong ,,, they need to seek forgiveness not always from the same person , but in some respect so as to change their ways.


I know of one person personally this life who had hurt me many lives before ... IT came in relationship to abuse going on in a family situation . I could see how this person was attempting to make amends.. doing good deeds and treating people well, treating me rather well.


It transpired through time in relationship with this person and me growing in character that it was my responsibility to tell this person how I no longer wanted to get involved in the negative pattern of behaviour any more , and I did so in my mind. . I saw an immediate shift in that persons actions toward me. It felt like they no longer invaded my space. ... and I felt we could move on into more love between us and that both of us gained more character.


Now that person would not have made that shift had they been in a different state of responsibility. They had the idea of guilt in their mind and so could feel how I felt towards them. \


Without dealing with the concept of guilt would any of us change.??? Guilt does not mean beating oneself up.. It requires seeing the outcome of ones actions ,seeing how people are affected. Then by acting towards breaking this negative action and doing good one is adding to the love in the world.

 

[Truthseeker]

Andrewx,


I understand what you're saying and I agree with you up to a point. You're right, just because someone was a murderer in the past, it does not make them a murderer today. However, Soulfreindly is right. If you wash your hands of the past completely, how can one grow? The body dies, but the soul carries the energy from that life with it into the future. Patterns will keep repeating themselves. The cycle cannot be broken if soul does not grow.

 

[Laurasia]

Hello Andrew.


Thank you for your kind words. I don't "beat myself up with guilt" over what Hans did, at least not anymore. However, I do perceive a sense of "collective responsibilty" regarding the actions of many of us souls who orchestrated & carried out the Holocaust during WWII. We are now able to shed light on the facts of how our lives (the perpretrators) really were, what our thought processes were like, the fact that we were human beings & not brainless, murderous automatons. To bring light to the fact that normal people can be led to do horrendous things under the right conditions. Those of us who remember should be bringing light to that fact so that it never happens again - not out of guilt, but because we can tell the truth of these "monsters" humanities.


In the same vein, I have also seen (though I didn't really understand it myself) instances where former Holocaust victims were helped immensely by understanding their former oppressors/murderers better via that persons' "owning up" to having lived such a "guilt heavy" lifetime. It helped them to find forgiveness for what was done to them during that lifetime.


Sincerely,


Laurasia

 

[Jody]

I don't think *other people* should hold them responsible, but I think that they themselves should hold themselves responsible, because ultimately when you do terrible, nasty things it's your *own* soul you are hurting. Isn't that the law of the universe? Isn't that what karma is all about?


A major problem with judging others is that we don't have the wisdom or experience of putting ourselves in another's place. I have never grown up in Nazi Germany and experienced the same experiences Hans B. did. How can I judge him? An omniscient God can judge him, Hans's higher self can judge him, but I can't, and I'm not sure even an earthly Laurasia can because she doesn't perfectly understand or remember Hans's motives for doing what he did (though I think she can assist his soul by working out his karma).


Not that I'm against putting criminals behind bars for something they did in their current life to keep them from hurting people again ... but I think it's going way to far to condemn others for what they've allegedly done in a previous life, you would think God and Karma would have that well under control. But that's just me, someone who in a possible previous lifetime was accused (falsely, I hope) of piracy, rape and murder ...

 

[Ailish]

Hi Gang,


Andrew, I understand what you're saying. One cannot hold a present day person accountable for things that happened historically at the hand of another individual! In our present lives, we are not who we were in the past. They are a part of our soul's history through experience, but we are not that person...and we are the culmination of many experiences.


Personally, I don't believe in karma as a form of punishment.


Buddhist scholar Walpola Rahula said:

"The theory of karma should not be confused with so-called 'moral justice' or 'reward and punishment'. The idea of moral justice, or reward and punishment, arises out of the conception of a supreme being, a God, who sits in judgment, who is a law-giver and who decides what is right and wrong. The term 'justice' is ambiguous and dangerous, and in its name more harm than good is done to humanity. The theory of karma is the theory of cause and effect, of action and reaction; it is a natural law, which has nothing to do with the idea of justice or reward and punishment."

Karma is a Sanskrit word that means "action." An alternative version with the same meaning is the Pali spelling of kamma. In Buddhism, karma has a more specific meaning, which is volitional or willful action. Things we choose to do or say or think set karma into motion. The law of karma is a law of cause and effect.


From my discussions with people, it seems that many believe the word karma means fate - and that it's some sort of cosmic justice system. Sometimes people use the word karma to describe the result of karma (action). For example, someone might say Jack lost his job because "that's his karma." However, I believe in the Buddhist use the word, which means karma is the action, not the result.


Although the past has some influence on the present, the present also is shaped by the actions of the present. Thanissaro Bhikkhu explained in What the Buddha Taught (Grove Press, 1959, 1974) why this is significant:

"...instead of promoting resigned powerlessness, the early Buddhist notion of karma focused on the liberating potential of what the mind is doing with every moment. Who you are — what you come from — is not anywhere near as important as the mind's motives for what it is doing right now. Even though the past may account for many of the inequalities we see in life, our measure as human beings is not the hand we've been dealt, for that hand can change at any moment. We take our own measure by how well we play the hand we've got."

When we seem stuck in old, destructive patterns, it may not be the karma of the past that's causing us to be stuck - it's more likely that we're re-creating the same old patterns with our present thoughts and attitudes (i.e. someone who has been a victim in a pl, who continues to play the victim role in this lifetime may be drawing the negativity towards them by their present thoughts and actions - not the past). To change our karma, and change our lives, we have to change our thoughts. We are wholly responsible for ourselves.


Zen teacher John Daido Loori said, "Cause and effect are one thing. And what is that one thing? You. That’s why what you do and what happens to you are the same thing."


Just some things to think about


Aili

 

[Truthseeker]

When we seem stuck in old, destructive patterns, it may not be the karma of the past that's causing us to be stuck - it's more likely that we're re-creating the same old patterns with our present thoughts and attitudes (i.e. someone who has been a victim in a pl, who continues to play the victim role in this lifetime may be drawing the negativity towards them by their present thoughts and actions - not the past). To change our karma, and change our lives, we have to change our thoughts. We are wholly responsible for ourselves.

I agree with you 100%. I think you've done a more effect job of saying what I was trying to say, and I don't think that ignoring the past or not taking any responsibility is an effective way of breaking a negative thought pattern.


I, too, don't believe in karma as a punishment/reward system. If someone spends a lifetime hating a particular ethnic group, for example, and they reincarnate into that ethnic group. I don't believe it's God forcing them to do so as a form of punishment. I think the soul choses to do so for their own personal growth and understanding. Our "Higher Self" wants to experience the other side to learn not to hate.

 

[Laurasia]

Thank you Aili.


We seem to hold a rather similar view of how karma works. You worded your post beautifully. hug2.gif


Sincerely,


Laurasia

 

[msmir]

Thank you Aili.
We seem to hold a rather similar view of how karma works. You worded your post beautifully. hug2.gif


Sincerely,


Laurasia

hi Laura, I read your notes about you knowing you were Hans. I was actually a Holocaust victim in my last life in Auschwitz, and I believe one of my lessons in this life was to "toughen up". And my feeling is, in order for a Nazi to have reincarnated so quickly as you did, there were feelings of guilt and fear.. and not pure darkness because you had ascended to the middle astral planes to have reincarnated. The true dark beings that had no conscious at all I believe are still in the lower astral realms. Whatever you do, don't feel guilty for what happened in your last life.. as guilt is an emotion that will bring negative energy. Just be the best you can be. I know it's easier said than done, but that is what I am trying to do. Acknowledged the past but don't feel guilty about it and simply move on. You are no longer Hans. I know I committed many "wrongs" in some of my past lives and I am trying to fix those areas. I hope I made sense as I am feeling quite tired right now.. but I decided to log on tonight as I haven't been here for a while, and wanted to write you a note.

 

[Laurasia]

Hello Msmir.


Thank you for your kind words. You are right about Hans having guilt, he simply also had the sense that what he was doing was for the greater good of his family & people. Because of these conflicting feelings over the actions that he truly felt that he had to do he smoked & drank very heavily in an attempt to numb himself. I have had recollections in which Hans' feelings of betrayal & disillusion are very much present. So I know that, while he was unable to overcome his training & desire to be "one of the elite", he did have a sense of guilt over what they were doing.


At times it has been very difficult for me to seperate Hans' feelings from my own (especially when I first started getting his recollections), but I have become much better at that now. Through working with some of my other past lives I have become more understanding of why I lived a life such as Hans & how his lifetime connects with others that I have had. :thumbsup:


Sincerely,


Laurasia

 

[msmir]

Hello Msmir.
Thank you for your kind words. You are right about Hans having guilt, he simply also had the sense that what he was doing was for the greater good of his family & people. Because of these conflicting feelings over the actions that he truly felt that he had to do he smoked & drank very heavily in an attempt to numb himself. I have had recollections in which Hans' feelings of betrayal & disillusion are very much present. So I know that, while he was unable to overcome his training & desire to be "one of the elite", he did have a sense of guilt over what they were doing.

Glad to help, and it was actually more common than people realize, the feelings of guilt that many of these Nazis had. Many of them did what they did out of fear.

At times it has been very difficult for me to seperate Hans' feelings from my own (especially when I first started getting his recollections), but I have become much better at that now. Through working with some of my other past lives I have become more understanding of why I lived a life such as Hans & how his lifetime connects with others that I have had. :thumbsup:


Sincerely,


Laurasia

This is good, shows that you are evolving since you have a better understanding That is why were are here! To learn and to evolve. When I had my life in Victorian Britain, I was a daughter of an Earl and became very, very spoiled.. and had everything handed to me on a silver platter. In this life, I have to work very hard for my luxuries... and even my necessities, like many others do. However, in my case it's an important lesson since I allowed myself to get very spoiled in that life. In my life after that, the Holocaust one, I was a child so I didn't learn anything, but I am learning plenty now.

 

[Laurasia]

Indeed, we are all here to learn &/or teach something. Hans' lifetime & the events within it actually parellel quite startlingly with events from some of my other lifetimes. Sometimes in opposition to things that previously happened or, in the cases of things that had not yet been learned, as situations that were eerily similar from previous lifetimes.


I think that all of us both learn & teach within each of our lifetimes. Even if the lessons offered & absorbed are rather small in scale. Most people that we come into contact with effect us on some level - even if it is subconsciously. For example, say a woman lives by herself on a small farm taking care of her animals & gardens. She rarely ventures out from her own little corner of the world...just to shop & such. She may, during a later lifetime, feel that this solitary uneventful life wasn't of much use. She didn't seem to learn or teach anything, but that may not be true. While her own life may have been uneventful, perhaps she inspired a sense of oneness with Nature or self-reliance within her neighbors during that lifetime. She would have been a teacher without ever even realizing it.


Sincerely,


Laurasia

 

[msmir]

Hmm so true and interesting. We tend to carry traits that create these parellels too. In my book which is coming out in October, I talk about how my recent past lives have had an affect on me today and there are definitely many parellels. Interesting what I have learned over the past year or so!

 

[Owl]

Hello Andrew
I think a person should own any guilt from a past life or a present one. This is the nature of personal growth -- taking responsibility for ones actions, and making amends.

I agree with this. Doing something in a past life is like doing something when you were 5 in this life. The circumstances and the environment were different, yes, but it was still YOU. It' s easy to just say "It was someone else" and move on, but that doesn' t help you grow. I' ve ofter heard people say "You' re not that person anymore, you just happen to carry his/her memories", what good would it do to my current lifetime to just remember something that happened to a person that is not related to me anyhow? i won' t learn from my neighbors experience, only from MINE. So i' m a firm believer that we are responsible for what we did in a past life, specially if we remember doing it or we think it' s plausible.


However, and some might disagree on this, i don' t think we should be held responsible in court or stand trial for past life actions. It would be an unfair trial because we wouldn' t be judged with the laws of the time we lived, people have a different mindset now, and we might not remember the facts we' re judged for as clear as we wished.

I think if someone has done something wrong ,,, they need to seek forgiveness not always from the same person , but in some respect so as to change their ways.

If they feel guilty for it, sure, they should. If they don' t, then they shouldn' t.

 

[usetawuz]

I agree with the original post...I do not believe we are guilty of acts our previous iterations have committed while incarnate. I have suffered a deep and abiding sense of guilt for atrocities I committed at age 19 as an afghan brigand around 900 AD. My actions were so inhuman and horrific I was in disbelief and agony to think I committed them and I forced my own death in that lifetime.


I found this in hypnotic regression, and as stated in a previous thread, allowed myself to feel unworthy of love and happiness, even in this life. Through my efforts in hypnosis and therapy I have come to the realization that what occurred in past lives, while it may impact how one deals with matters in this lifetime (and human beings are hidebound to patterns of all sorts, both good and bad), are the issues of that lifetime. Those past lives each stand on their own...their own lessons, personalities, circumstances and opportunities. This lifetime has a different plan, personality makeup, circumstantial setup, and opportunities, all of which are truly for this lifetime...not an obligation in payment of a life before. While Karmic balances will be made, they are not retributional, and seem mostly in the form of repeating the opportunity to make the right choice at the next opportunity.


My afghan brigand has now been put at ease, and no longer carries the weight of his actions. It happened, it is over, everyone involved has long since moved on and lived again (including my Ms. X), and I have received many later opportunities to make the right choice in a hard situation and have done so. As a wise friend asked "If God can forgive you, why can't you?"