Human perspective vs. Spirit perspective?

[Marc]

Thank you S&S for your comments which I always find to be just and profound. In no way do I suggest that the wife should give up her ideals - however 'retrograde' they may seem to some - and accept so-called western values and civilization (her PL was in India by the way). The real problem is that she suffers without knowing why, refuses to acknowledge it, and is making her family suffer too due to her regular fits of aggressiveness. She is both a victim and her family's tormentor. My sympathies go to the victim not the tormentor. As for the man (husband), he is paying the price of his selfishness. He wanted for his 21st century reincarnation the same docile wife he had in 19th century India. What was he expecting? The guides had warned him that she was not 'ready' but he wouldn't listen. After being a dominant male figure in patriarchal India, he became in his new incarnation the one to suffer under the repeated assaults of his depressive wife, with no end in sight, and the additional burden and responsibility to protect the children when the situation got out of control.

Most stories are based on scenarios that have an end and a moral. This one doesn't because it is a real life situation.

 

[baro-san]

So, the story-wife had no say in the decision to reincarnate? She didn't get advised by her guides?

Anyway, to me, the story highlights the limitations, and the likely unforeseen detrimental consequences, of making decisions based on emotions and intellect, and not being able to use one's institution.

 

[Marc]

So, the story-wife had no say in the decision to reincarnate? She didn't get advised by her guides?

Anyway, to me, the story highlights the limitations, and the likely unforeseen detrimental consequences, of making decisions based on emotions and intellect, and not being able to use one's institution.

Absolutely, the man was clearly motivated by human emotions (selfishness, stubbornness) and he is now paying a heavy price. As to the wife, while the details are not known, she must have had a discussion/consultation with her guides, and we know its outcome: willingly or reluctantly, she eventually returned back to earth with her previous husband.

 

[SeaAndSky]

Hi Marc,

So sad, especially the fact that she seems to be losing her mental balance. For some reason I have a feeling that she needs to visit India with her husband. I have no idea whether that would be possible or she would accept such a suggestion, and I don't know why I have a feeling that it might help. I can think of some reasons, but they wouldn't really make any difference. It can only happen if the husband thinks that it is possible and the right thing for them to do, and he can prevail on her to accompany him. Even then, it is just intuition on my part (which could be dead wrong, as I will be the first to admit).

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I'll sleep on the matter and, hopefully, wake up with a better idea of why this might be a good idea.

 

[baro-san]

... it is just intuition on my part (which could be dead wrong, as I will be the first to admit).

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I'll sleep on the matter and, hopefully, wake up with a better idea of why this might be a good idea.

How do you know it's your intuition? How do you differentiate it from guessing, wishing, feeling?

 

[Marc]

Hi Marc,

So sad, especially the fact that she seems to be losing her mental balance. For some reason I have a feeling that she needs to visit India with her husband. I have no idea whether that would be possible or she would accept such a suggestion, and I don't know why I have a feeling that it might help. I can think of some reasons, but they wouldn't really make any difference. It can only happen if the husband thinks that it is possible and the right thing for them to do, and he can prevail on her to accompany him. Even then, it is just intuition on my part (which could be dead wrong, as I will be the first to admit).

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I'll sleep on the matter and, hopefully, wake up with a better idea of why this might be a good idea.

Dear S&S,

The husband tried, to no avail. His wife is obsessed with order and cleanliness, and India is "dirty, dangerous, and full of beggars harassing tourists". The issue is not so much about nostalgy for a place as about replicating or recreating the societal codes that regulated human interactions in 19th century India. Essentially, she aspires (without knowing it) to living in a society combining western comfort with Indian moral imperatives. And it's also about freedom. She has it but does not know what to do with it. She has never LEARNED to use it because she never had to. The rules were there and people had no other choice than to live within their confines. Of course, she is a proponent of traditional values and considers that the Western world is mocking them as being a 'thing of the past', characterizing 'backward societies', which contributes to her anxiety, suffering and attitude of revolt.

She was definitely not ready for this new incarnation. In that case, why did the guides fulfill the husband's whim of dragging his unprepared wife into this new life cycle? Hard to say. My guess, which can be totally wrong, is that they may have seen an opportunity for both to 'grow' faster. As a result, they were thrown into the water without knowing how to swim. Will they learn? Only the guides may know. What is sure is that both are learning the hard way.

 

[SeaAndSky]

Hi Baro-san,

The simple answer to your question is--I don't. At least, not most of the time. As you may have noticed, I used the term "feeling" twice before I used the term "intuition". I could have thrown in the term "hunch" or a variety of other terms. This level of "vague" perception is a lot like trying to see things through a thick fog where shapes are somewhat discernable, but can be interpreted in various ways. (There is a great sequence in the movie "Up" illustrating this situation very nicely). And, just as in that movie, what one thinks they perceive may end up being illusory. So, I usually treat such things like an initial hypothesis that could be (if sufficiently interesting) further explored and (hopefully) either falsified or verified.

Cordially,
S&S

 

[SeaAndSky]

Hi Marc,

Does she have other female Indian friends in the U.S. who are also traditionalists but have adapted (even if with distaste) to living in a much more decadent and non-traditional society? (After "sleeping" on the matter, I think my former response was probably exaggerated in terms of the need to go to India and talk to someone of that type in India). But I do think that she needs someone to talk to who will both understand, empathize and agree with her as much as possible. Ideally, someone who is feeling the same things she is but has learned to cope with the situation in a more positive way. This person would almost certainly need to be another female, and as similar to her as possible.

However, the foregoing is only a first step, as I suspect she is not receiving this type of empathy and affirmation from her own family. I think this may be (at least partially) at the root of her more extreme anger reactions. There are many traditionalist societies in the world, and many are currently rebelling against the cultural imperialism of the West as it consciously or unconsciously undermines their traditions. Some of these traditions, quite frankly, may need to be undermined. I don't think any sensible person in India or elsewhere really regrets the suppression of the Suttee tradition for widows. However, IMO, much of what we undermine is neutral and/or even superior to the way things are going in the West. I agree with her on that, and on the general superiority of traditional marriage, morals and virtues vis-a-vis the current status of things in the West. I also think her family needs to agree with her on this, if only to preserve the peace, but even with that, the anger may well linger . . . .

My last comment is based on personal experience. It is said that "the past is a foreign country", but if that is true it is also true that the present can seem like a foreign country to the old (as well as to those with extensive PL memories). I also seek to cope with the changes I see around me, where I see the things I knew dead or dying. This is a form of grief, and I have found that the 5 stages of grief outlined by Kubler-Ross have validity and explanatory value for me at a personal level:

https://www.psycom.net/stages-of-grief

They are usually summarized as denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. One may oscillate between these during the journey towards acceptance, but usually one predominates. I am way past "denial" and experience anger, bargaining, and depression over the state and direction of things. I probably cope better as I have plenty of people around me who agree with me and empathize with my reactions. Plus, I may simply have been working on it longer and the change from the U.S. of my youth to the U.S. of today is less radical than the change she is experiencing. One day I may reach "acceptance" and I am certainly closer than I used to be. However, she could have a long road ahead. And, I think the acceptance, validation and sympathy her family shows for her and her feelings in this matter will be invaluable.

The foregoing is, of course, only my opinion as an old man who is not trained in counseling or anything similar. But, my blessings and sympathy do go to both her and her family. And, I do think that I understand some of what she is feeling.

Cordially,
S&S

 

[Polaris8]

So apparently in the time and space between death and birth, our spirits have this greater, broader perspective that we don't otherwise have while we're in our human form... and use this perspective to plan for our next human/Earthy life. I been told quite a few times on and off this site that while we may want something in and/or for our next life, our spirit, when it's time to reincarnate, might not feel the same way, due to having access to that broader perspective...

But what if I'm dead-set on something? What if I don't care in the slightest about some "broader perspective"? Because I really don't! There's just one little aspect about my next life and it is immeasurable how much it means and matters to me. If I'm being egotistical or closed-minded then so be it! In fact, I kind of like being told things like "it's just my ego" or "I'm not being open-minded" so-on and so-fourth just for the satisfaction i get out of emphasizing how important that thing is to me... in such a sense that I don't even care if there's something "better" or even "more to my liking" than what I want.

This one little detail is more important to me than life itself and it always will... and I didn't open this thread looking for reassurances or for people to coddle me. But I just have to know something: is it even remotely possible that if i feel very strongly about something will it really override whatever broader-spirit perspective has to over? Even if nobody knows I hope to beyond the Heavens that it does.

DivineOne,

You are correct in that there is a vast difference between what we want on a human level vs what is best for us on a soul level. Basically, the human consciousness while incarnated deals with the lower ego of the mind in every lifetime we incarnate here in this physical three-dimensional plane of existence. Having said that the lower ego wants many things. Most of it is not good. As it places itself above all others generally. This wanting, of desire for power, control, money, fame, sexual satisfaction, drugs, materialism, being entertained, wanting things a certain way, the list can go on forever keeps soul trapped in the cycle of birth and death within the lower worlds of duality.

What most don't understand is that the ego is a part of the illusion of maya of this world. It's not who we really are. On the other end of the spectrum is soul consciousness. Which is above the mind world and all of its illusions. From this level of being comes pure unconditional love, connection, unity, cosmic consciousness and a much wider broader view and understanding of what life is really all about and the true nature of existence. This is in face the true you. The eternal part of who you really are and have always been. Yet we forget this when we come here and fall under the illusion of the mind and lower ego. And there lies the conundrum. For you see originally the lower ego is used to protect soul from harm be it physical, emotional and mental while incarnated here. So, properly used it is a tool to help soul navigate the pitfalls and twist and turns in life here. However, over the course of our many lifetimes here the ego becomes overgrown and every powerful.

As one starts to spiritual unfolded there is a battle that goes on between the ego and soul. Enlightenment only comes when one experiences ego death. This is when the ego falls away and soul becomes aware for the first time in a long time of who and what is really is. This process can and usually is very painful as the ego won't go peacefully. This battle at times is so powerful that it can even end the physical life of the body. There is an old say, (the mind is a useful servant but a bad master). Meaning soul must at all-times be in control of the mind. Otherwise, if the mind is allowed to take control of everything and run amuck it will create more karmic debit, then soul intended to during this lifetime.

In the bigger scheme of things our lifetime here is very short and brief. Most of our time is actually spent in-between incarnations in the higher worlds of pure sprit. Only briefing dipping our toes in the water to experience earth life for a short time. So, this wanting something in your life needs to be for the betterment of not only yourself, but for the betterment of all in concern in your life and humanity itself. It must come from you as soul!!!! not your ego. Only then will it manifest in your life.

Wishing you peace, joy and most of all love...

Polaris.