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Does christianity have a future?

Shiftkitty said:
Why stop at Christianity? Does any religion stand a chance against enlightenment?
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I think that Shiftkitty made a crucial point with this question, because it really goes to the heart of the actual issue, which is blind faith in the practice of worship. In fact, I would even go further to include the religion of materialism in all its forms, because the behavior is the same whether we include God or not. Our tendency to put our faith in people and institutions is universal. Our religious adherence to ideologies, our worship of Hollywood personalities, our emotional dependence on materialism, and our faith in a higher power are all facets of the same human tendency, which will never significantly diminish. It is behind our ideologies, and is at the core of our social behaviors.


When we truly examine what is behind Religion, I think that we will have a very long way to go before enlightenment truly takes a majority hold on the world. When we look at the history of Christianity, we can certainly say that it has changed significantly as a result of enlightenment. It is no longer the powerful institution that it was. Yet, it can also be said that society has filled that void with a variety of other ideologies in which people have the same degree of blind faith. For many it was Newtonian Science, for others it was Spiritualism, and for still others it was Atheism and Paganism. Today we are witnessing more freedom of beliefs than ever enjoyed in recorded history. However I would ask this question: Are we actually enlightened? Or, are we really just replacing one blind faith for another?
 
Nightrain said:
Today we are witnessing more freedom of beliefs than ever enjoyed in recorded history. However I would ask this question: Are we actually enlightened? Or, are we really just replacing one blind faith for another?
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Good question...though for me, I am placing blind faith in what I am experiencing and feeling...if I cannot believe what I "know", how can I have faith in anything?
 
I have been having great difficulty finding any religion that matches my faith that has been built upon my personal experiences. With those, and the experiences of the posters here, spiritual but not religious probably fits me best.
 
AOSpare said:
Jesus, his ideals, deeds and acts were, in my opinion, hijacked a long, long time ago! What we have now is a Christianity whose truths have been lost. Without the original truths and Gnostic tenets it is a political power play and I believe more and more people will turn away from it.
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I agree with what you say. When the Council of Nicea determined what books were admitted in to the bible a lot of books and gospels were left out and ultimately burned. Christains were forced to accept 'only' those books and gospels that the theologians of the day headed by the Roman emperor Constintine, a self converted pagan. Those books that are supposed to by the 'word of God' had to pass the approval of a the political motivated emperor. Anyone who did not accept this newly formed book were branded heretics and killed. Any ghostic beliefs were put down in favor of the priests and 'leaders' of the church so they could keep their jobs.


I think Jesus would rather have had His 'words' obeyed instead of His 'self' worshipped.
 
Kristopher said:
I wonder if it can 'keep up' with the social changes of the 20th century and beyond that.
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It depends on the church, usually what I find as a Catholic is that alot of people have been doing Satan's job by ridiculing others and making them feel bad. With the modern behavior then yes christianity would be going down however I agree with Pope Francis; Who am I to judge if you are Atheist, gay or any other differences, it's the thought of loving others as your own that counts
 
I have great hope that Pope Francis will turn the tide back to the positive for the Catholic Church. Sustaining faith is important, and most of us manage to reconcile our more esoteric beliefs with the "faith of our fathers", whatever that may be.
 
I think that's an overly negative view of Christianity. The forum doesn't exist to denigrate the beliefs of others. Sure, there are a lot of false Christians, but I have met fundamentalists, and Catholics, who would qualify as saints on earth. I grew up with them, and remember those long-passed good people with a smile and a tear. It doesn't hurt to look for some good in people - it benefits us to do so. :)
 
I'm not a Christian, so I didn't take what you said as a personal attack. It's my job as a moderator to keep the discussion in this section of the forum fair, and balanced. I do have a question, though. Are you angry at Christians for "duping" you, or angry at yourself for feeling that you were "duped"? There may be past life reasons that your anti-Christian feelings are so strong. It's a shame you have the "block" to your past-life memories. By the way - I've read the Bible, too. ;)
 
As a moderator, myself, I am also bound by duty to keep discussions civil. So, when I express my agreement with KDB's posts, I do so because I believe they contain legitimate points of discussion and should not be construed as any kind of personal attack on anyone's faith. However, I admit, the line between the two can be very very blurry and highly dependent upon each person's level of information.


For the sake of this particular discussion, I would add my personal opinion that faith-based beliefs are naturally and historically opposed to what I call "enlightenment". Of course this statement is a broad stroke and worthy of further definition; but those who are well-versed in history and philosophy would tend to agree, since much of our general knowledge stems from the period of enlightenment in which the practices of the all-powerful and very worldly Catholic Church were questioned.


As a former Catholic, myself, I see this not as an attack on other Christians, but rather as a well-known statement of fact. I would further add that all Religions are vulnerable to the bright light of knowledge; and that this present period of enlightenment will continue as long as technology remains freely accessible.
 
KDB,


Thank you for your perspective. I like Nightrain and others were brought up in traditional Catholic households. I never understood the animosity between differing Christian sects, until, like you, I decided to look for myself. I read the bible and saw for myself the discrepancies. And it really made me mad... and a bit of a radical. Even my short time in the seminary made me question the "truth" being taught.


I became cynical, a bit of a radical. Until a wise person told me it was OK, Jesus was a radical too. His intent was not grand cathedrals, puritanical countries, and coerced morality. He wasn't about robotic repetition of meaningless words. His interest was in the relationship between you and the rest of the world. Quite simple! It really wasn't anything new, in fact it was quite similar to what Siddhartha Gautama, Buddha, taught his followers 400 to 700 years before Jesus. Some interesting theories speculate that perhaps Jesus studied some form of Buddhism in his early years. There is of course no way to know that for sure. But as a people with soulful purpose, and curiosity we can certainly read and study, drawing our own wisdom from the words, and perhaps seeing some commonality.


BUT, my point is to say that the relationship you and I have with the world has been the focus of people since civilizations began. The focus of these two great teachers (and many others not mentioned) was that the root of our interaction with the world must be compassionate. The common word seems to be love. A further, and even older principle, is that of Yin and Yang. (I must clarify: I am no expert on this... simply a novice pilgrim seeking wisdom!) Yin-Yang was part of an ancient Chinese philosophy of simply "light and dark," good and evil, and was basically a philosophy of balanced thought. As with all archetypical ideas it has been morphed into many practices over the centuries. But lets just take the simple concept of light and dark, mix it with Buddha's paradox of suffering and joy, and then throw in Jesus's teachings on love... And I'd say we have a pretty legitimate blueprint for our interrelationship with the world.


I am a BIG proponent of breaking things down into their simplest form. This I believe: 1. We ARE spiritual beings on a journey of faith. 2. On this path we must be persistent. The road is bumpy and filled with trepidation, there are detours at every corner. Cynicism and its' darkness are traps for the weak. 3. Our strength comes from mindful and earnest observation of the world, and the gift of discernment. 4. Distractions are everywhere, choose your passions, avoid the abyss of entanglement... in other words concentrate on what you are living. 5. Walking this path called life will yield wisdom if you shed the ego... the I/me of everything. Free from one's self, one can offer compassion to the world.


So in conclusion, and before I reach maximum word capacity. I do not think Christianity is dead, no more than any other philosophy on our existence. There is darkness in every symbol of humankind. To single out the beauty of Christianity or any other religion for rebuke (in my opinion;)) is a wrong turn on the journey. Absolutely there is darkness there... YES! It is everywhere it is a part of the light that is also there. Where do we place our energy, the fuel of our soulful journey?


NOW, I will put my Administrator hat on. This discussion is valid and enlightening for all of us. That is the purpose of the forum. However we reserve the right, as a privately owned forum, to maintain decorum and civility. THAT decorum and civility is based on the sole judgement of Administration and the forum's owners. This has worked for many, many years, and why we are admired and successful. With that said, any word or words deemed inciteful or derogatory will be edited out. This is not for debate, nor for discussion on the open forum. Private communication is always welcomed.


Blessings,


Tman
 
I'm going to say something favorable about "real" Christianity. There have been stories in the media about "so-called" Christians in the Mid-West leaving ugly notes to gay waiters and waitresses. They say something like "The service was good, but we don't choose to support your abhorrent life style with our money." The good part is coming. Someone in my area is leaving what they call "Jesus tips" - a thousand dollars in cash to random food servers, some of them gay. The benefactor of these people is anonymous. To me, this person "gets" what being a Christian means. I reiterate, I am not a Christian. But, "fair and balanced" means finding the good that exists, and acknowledging it, as well as the bad. KDB, you are incapable of making me angry. My "other cheek" has been turned.
 
Now as for myself, in my youth I went to a small nondenominational fundamentalist church. The pastor of that church was an older man who can say was a 'real' christian. He really practiced and lived his faith and was indeed a man of God so to speak. And this pastor have to say was so much different then either Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. He really did believe that if you were a Christian that your life should be set apart from how the world does things and should show the gospel thru your life. And he did not ever preach that being some christian will make you rich but more the opposite it seemed. In fact in his church there never once was an offering in the church service but just a place in the back if one was willing to offer anything. Also any visiting preacher, he would freely offer up the pulpit and let that visiting preacher do the preaching. And around the small church was a real troddened path of where he the pastor would walk daily and pray. And this pastor's favorite song was 'Amazing Grace'. And when this pastor died, that small church was packed to the gills from how many people near and far who had been profoundly affected by this man's simple life. Now my live personally was profoundly affected by this pastor and by going to this church in my youth. And am really glad that I was here in my youth and it was a apart of my life for it kept me out of so many troubles that a young person can find themselves in. And there are certain things that I learned here at this church in my youth which is still a part of my life today. One part am grateful for is that it started my life more on a spiritual minded path even in my youth then a path with the more secular mind that is so prevelent today it seems. And do think that our society would be far better off if there was more people around who was like this old pastor.


And as for the topic of this thread, Yes do think that Christianity does indeed have a future. There might be quite a few Charlatans and so called Hypocrites out there. But there are some who one can say are indeed 'Real' Christians and who do practice what they believe and what Jesus taught. And if one really looks at the teaching of Jesus, there are indeed some real good honest truths in there. For one there so needs to be so much more true 'Love' out there in todays society.


Do think that when Christianity ovetook the Roman Empire that in many ways how much did also the Roman Empire take over early Christianity. But there have been always some true believers and some true christians out there. And when one really come down to it, how many of those real teachings of Jesus were real spiritual common sense it seems. But even in many churches, even these teachings of their 'Savior' has and is being buried it seems.


Now personally I could never never ever be some atheist or agnostic for have a strong belief in the Creator or as one said 'The Spirit who Moves In All Things'. In going to the wilderness and with practicing wilderness living, I just prefer the Native American approach it seems. And ever since I was small have been attracted to all things Native American. But as for Christianity, Yes there is a future as long as they are truly real christians like this one pastor I knew in my youth.


Wishing Everyone the Best!
 
Thank you for sharing, kMatjhwy. That was beautiful. I prefer the Native American way myself. A shaman came to my door last Thursday morning. It wasn't a planned meeting, but a great blessing. I need those to keep me going, and I thanked Guidance for sending him.
 
I've come to this thread late, and don't claim to have read every single one of the preceding posts, so please forgive me if I echo previously expressed sentiments. My thoughts are no more important than yours, and you've probably already said, far more eloquently than I, what I'm about to say.


The original question was, I believe, "does Christianity have a future?" Well, can I widen that to ask, "does any religion have a future?" I think religion is so outdated. It's always been used by the ruling classes as a form of social control. People have woken up to that over recent decades. My concern is that widespread rejection of orthodox religion now equates to widespread rejection of spirituality, to a lack of belief in something other than materialism. So many equate religion to delusion. If Moses had hired Hitler to do Jewish PR, then the catholic church is to God what Hitler is to Moses! And, were I fully conversant with the icons of other religions, I would make similar cases for them...
 
Well, Arrant, your comparison between Hitler doing PR for the Jews, and the Church of Rome selling religion brought my first smile of the day. It's 3:00 P.M., so it's overdue! :laugh:
 
KDB said:
A valid concern, IMO.
I think if they're perceptive enough to reject these religions, they are perceptive enough to know that spirituality is different and opposed to these religions. I put myself in that category, but how many others do this? I don't know. It would be interesting to study that, if it hasn't been done already.


It seems to me to be impossible to progress without rejecting these religions, though. If it is true that people have a spiritual dimension, then I don't see them rejecting spirituality. Rejecting these religions just makes it possible to grow spiritually.
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I put myself in that category, also. However, what I observe more and more, especially in young people, is not only a rejection of religion, but also of the notion of spirituality - which, despite their malformed edicts, is at the core of all religions. Many's the time I've argued that, for instance, a lot of biblical stories are intended as allegories, rather than as literal truths. But any acknowledgement of this fact is undermined by the preaching of Christian or Islamic fundamentalists, and the pious, becostumed church leaders - often so out of touch with reality, and themselves not practising what they preach. So many people seem unable to separate the corrupt, man-made constructs of religion from the truth of human kind's essentially spiritual nature - instead lumping them together as human inventions, and rejecting both out of hand. To be replaced, it seems, with the worship of material objects. A survey I read recently revealed that 48% of UK women would rather have their smartphone than be intimate with another human being! Topsy-turvy values, or what?
 
I tend to agree with you, Arrant, and KDB. People have trouble separating human constructs from the core - spirituality. I was taught to do that as a child - but it is still difficult. Most of the trappings surrounding religion are just window-dressing. Cruelty isn't part of most religious teachings, if you get to the "core", and the hand of man is removed. It's easier for me to be spiritual not participating in organized religion, and that may be true for many here.
 
KDB said:
A valid concern, IMO.
It seems to me to be impossible to progress without rejecting these religions, though. If it is true that people have a spiritual dimension, then I don't see them rejecting spirituality. Rejecting these religions just makes it possible to grow spiritually.
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Not sure I necessarily agree with this point. For all my many reservations about orthodox religions - and they are many - I have met quite a few individual Christians and Muslims who are spiritual beings to their core. The kind of people who radiate warmth and joy and understanding. To them their faith is central to their spirituality. Although I strongly disagree with many of the notions upon which their faith is founded, there is no gainsaying their innate spirituality.


Of course, I take the view - as do many of us discussing this - that religion is not simply surplus to requirements, but is actually divisive and misrepresents, or completely obscures, universal truths. But to many of the faithful, misguided though they may be, embracing a particular religion doesn't necessarily hinder personal spiritual progress.
 
KDB said:
I see the same thing.
"I don't know what peoples opinions are on the so-called "Michael teachings", but I see some parallels between these channelings and Michael Newtons work. My point being that they describe "young" souls as being driven by materialism, by success in the world. It offers a possible explanation on how these people act, and why. Not that that doesn't make them downright scary at times.."


I am not familiar with the work of Michael Newton, but I agree with the point about young souls - i.e. souls who have had few earthly incarnations - being driven by materialism and worldly success. It seems to me that there must be an overwhelming majority of such souls incarnate on earth at present, as we live in a world probably more materially driven than at any point in recorded history. It is so superficial, lauding the temporal, the gaudy, the loud, the rich, and casting scarcely a glance in the direction of the humble and loving.


It was once suggested to me that the reason the earth is currently host to over seven billion souls - a population bigger than at any point is history - is that so many new souls want to incarnate ahead of the cleansing cataclysm for so long forecast (that will wipe out much of humanity and therefore leave fewer bodies to incarnate into for generations to come), to experience the world and its trappings as it is now. It is also a window of opportunity (perhaps one last opportunity) for old souls to repay karmic debt built up over countless previous lives. Add the two groups together, and you get a pretty crowded planet....
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Chet Snow is one of the authors who talk about a coming cataclysm that will leave far fewer opportunities to incarnate, thus the seven billion souls crowding the planet. Of course, there are many others who espouse this view.
 
Arrant, Now just had to comment on your statement above. But what a very truthful and interesting comment. I do know several people who when they rejected Christianity, they seemed to have rejected all spirituality with becoming atheists and agnostics. My father was seemingly this way also with having rejected Christianity during WWII. It took him for years and years to begin to think that life continued after death and with having thoughts toward reincarnation. And for these people it seems to take so much effort for them to even begin to accept that there is a spiritual world out there so to speak. And do have a really good friend who calls himself an atheist / agnostic to this day after having rejected Christianity in his youth. This modern day society surely doesn't help things with being so secular in it's approach to everything it seems.


Then on the other hand, there are those who are deep in the church or some religion who need that structured approach to those things on the spiritual level so to speak, to just get thru life. Just look on how many people flock to the various churches and want that support in their life. I remember how many people hang onto every word that their preacher and pastor says without looking at things for their ownselves so to speak. Maybe possibly some of them could be more immature souls. Who Knows?


But as for myself when I was in the church, it seemed to be a stepping stone to the deeper spiritual truths and things that are indeed such a reality. And then came a time when the church could no longer hold a place in my life so it fell by the wayside. I would go into the wilds and what I saw went one direction, while what I saw in the church was going in the opposite direction so to speak. So the church fell away out of my life. But my spiritual journey has continued bigtime! Now am glad the church was a part of my life when I was young. But for me it turned out to be more of a stepping stone to the more deeper spiritual truths that are there which the physical eyes cannot see and which cannot be tested in some scientist's lab. For myself this spiritual world is as much as a reality as this physical world. And again my spiritual journey thru life continues.


Hope this makes sense. Wishing Everyone the Best!
 
Even when I was a teenager, and dragged off to those boring and endless "youth events", I felt closest to Spirit outside, under a tree. I was too mentally independent to accept baptism, which caused me to be alternately prayed over, and threatened with damnation. It isn't that I didn't want to please them - there was a tough core inside me that they couldn't reach. It was years later that I was able to separate the teachings of Christ from that of his followers. But, like you, I don't regret my upbringing, kMatjhwy. It showed me the example of a few really spiritual people, my grandma being one. She liked to say, "Hate the sin, not the sinner." I wish more people followed that. The stumbling block that many pseudo-Christians have is "Judge not, that ye be not judged." I think that's why it's so hard for those of us who are free-thinking not to judge them. I suppose the definition of sin is different for everyone. That would be the subject for another thread.
 
My difficulty with the Christianity I was brought up with and have seen since is not so much the words of the Christ, but rather the judgment of the pseudo-Christians...while the Christ was preaching tolerance and love, the Christians were judging me for not doing as they did...and they were not the Christ...odd that the man who requested not to be deified was somehow not only deified but misinterpreted in every other manner as well.
 
usetawuz said:
My difficulty with the Christianity I was brought up with and have seen since is not so much the words of the Christ, but rather the judgment of the pseudo-Christians...while the Christ was preaching tolerance and love, the Christians were judging me for not doing as they did...and they were not the Christ...odd that the man who requested not to be deified was somehow not only deified but misinterpreted in every other manner as well.
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You can say that again *embarrassed*, I do have to admit seriously I'm so sorry for all this. I can go off on a rant about this privately. I'm a melting pot of friendship.cover face I'm sorry, you are speaking my language and I'm trying to leave that part of my past behind me.


But anyways, I believe there is hope out there. There is always good in this world, you just need to find a way to tap it :D
 
usetawuz said:
My difficulty with the Christianity I was brought up with and have seen since is not so much the words of the Christ, but rather the judgment of the pseudo-Christians...while the Christ was preaching tolerance and love, the Christians were judging me for not doing as they did...and they were not the Christ...odd that the man who requested not to be deified was somehow not only deified but misinterpreted in every other manner as well.
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This resonates with me. Although I've already stated that I've met quite a few genuinely spiritual, non-judgemental Christians (and Muslims), I've met many more of the kind described by usetawaz, including within the ranks of my own blood relatives. So much sanctimonious claptrap endured as a teenager, all of it dressed up as Christian virtue!


Some might find it strange that, though I reject orthodox religions, I still have a firm belief in a deity. Indeed, I cannot conceive of a spiritual dimension without a godhead. To me, that godhead is the fountain from which all spirituality flows, and energises our existence. It is the one and only true judge of good and bad. I know not everyone sees it that way, but to me it is fundamental. I don't, of course, visualise God in biblical terms: the genteel old man, with a long, flowing white beard. I'm not sure how I visualise "him" (I specify a gender here simply because it's convention and quicker to write), but it matters little.
 
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