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Christianity and Reincarnation

The way I understand it is to think of it like a grade or semester in school. There is simply too much to learn in one lifetime. Humanity IS more enlightened than in the past. As you read about people's past life memories here you will see that things are much better today than they were hundreds of years ago. It may not always appear that things are better, but remember not everyone is at the same "grade level" here on Earth.
 
Patricia702 said:
If someone can help, I'd very much appreciate it. He's genuinely seeking answers not just arguing.
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When it comes to reincarnation - I feel it is a 'Mystery of God' in a literal sense. The definition of 'mystery' is: any truth that is unknowable except by divine revelation. (dictionary.com) Back in the early 80's - I had telepathic communications with 'spirits' after a 'near-death' experience. The subject of reincarnations was a constant subject that kept coming to the surface. I had many questions and no answers when I started out. The 'spirits' kept referring to 'reincarnation' as 'secret, or that which is hidden.' The 'spirits' (of a divine order) told me time and time again that the only way the information I was seeking could be revealed to me was 'through God's hand.' I was told that if I sought answers from the 'world' - the information would prove to be unreliable in the end.


I was told there was my 'want' or 'desire' to know - and there was my 'need' to know. I was told that "God" knew my needs and would never let me down. I was told that I would constantly be letting myself down if I chased after my 'desire' to know things I didn't have a 'need' to know.


That would be the advise I would pass on to this friend. Include 'God' in his quest for truth about reincarnation.


Sincerely,


DKing
 
Patricia702 said:
What would be the point? Would the point be that we are supposed to “learn” from our past life and try to be perfect in the next? And if we fail, we do it all over again etc., etc.
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Maybe there's no point. Why would you keep playing a soccer match again and again, even when you've lost a few times? Just because you love to play... (though in my opinion there is indeed a point).

dking777 said:
I was told there was my 'want' or 'desire' to know - and there was my 'need' to know. I was told that "God" knew my needs and would never let me down. I was told that I would constantly be letting myself down if I chased after my 'desire' to know things I didn't have a 'need' to know.
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I like these words, dking. I feel they're completely right.
 
Hi Patricia,


Rabbi Moses de Leon asks the same thing--

If the soul is perfect when originally descending from its spiritual source, and then returns to the same condition when the world ends, why bother to make the journey? What has really been gained if the alpha and omega are the same?
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His reply to his own question is -

The purpose of the soul entering the body is to exhibit its powers and abilities IN the world....And when it is in this world, it perfects itself and completes itself from this lower world....Then it is in a state of perfection, which was not the case in the beginning before descent.
Were it not composed in a mystic manner of what is above and below, it would not be complete.
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Thought you might like another perspective.
 
Interesting. It totally contradicts Christian teaching that we only get one chance to get it right before entering the lake of fire and brimstone. I like it!
 
The doctorine of Reincarnation / Sixth Century

dking777 said:
Note: The link to the original article is now 'dead.'
I have been searching and studying material since this subject was brought up on the other thread. Over and over again, I find that it is in 'error' to state that Origen taught and supported the Greek idea of 'metamorphosis' or 'transmigration of the soul.' I found a book titled "Metamorphosis" authored in 1914 by George Foot Moore. The following quote is from the book.


I found another site that disputes Shriley McClaine interview with Bob Costas where she also states that Origen taught reincarnation and was condemned for it.


No Ma'am, That's Not History! Shirley Maclaine, Reincarnation and Scholastic Dishonesty by Stephen F. Cannon


DKing
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The following excerpt is quite telling: 'It has been asserted that the doctrine of reincarnation was formally condemned by a Church Council in the sixth century, and the inference is drawn that prior to that time it had been current and uncondemned in the Church.'
 
It is true that the vast majority of Origen scholars have not come to the conclusion that the early church taught reincarnation. But if we look at the magnitude of the book burning that took place in the 6th century, it is easy to see that scholars come to this conclusion if they only look at remaining texts. Look for example at his 32 book commentary on the Gospel of John (the most spiritual of the Gospels). Only fragments of 11 books were preserved from his original greek writings. Now look at what the Romans burnt and what they allowed to survive. Of course Origen's commentary on Nicodemus was burnt, therefore, we miss the explanation of the most explicit reference to reincarnation in the Bible: "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"


What does remain for us to read today is Origen's treatment of John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah. See sections 24-25 at


Origen - Commentary on John Book 2


(This is one modern Scholar's view of Origen's restoration teaching. restoration article
 
SMurphy said:
......we miss the explanation of the most explicit reference to reincarnation in the Bible: "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
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I have an experience in my childhood that gives me an entirely different interpretation of this verse. At the age of 8 and 9, reincarnation was a subject close and dear to my heart. I never passed up the opportunity to bring it up to family or friends.


One day, I was in the backyard of my parents house and crying out to the "One" I knew of from my 'near-death's' about a situation I was involved with. A transparent figure showed up and started a conversation with me that lasted from morning to sunset. I asked this 'persona' who it was to me and was told,


"In the world of man many refer to what I am as an angel. I come to you with messages from the one you call your real Dad."


The subject was the physical verses the spiritual. When this 'being' brought up the idea of 'being born' again while in this incarnation - I never got the impression that this being was referencing 'reincarnation.' In fact, I was aware of my past lives and made a reference to this 'transparent persona' that the process was something done in a past life -- already. I was told,


"You walk with a new mind and body now. This must be done with each body you wear in the world of man."


What was being referenced with the 'borne again' topic - was a process. A process that took me 3 years to complete. During those three years (8-11) reincarnation was a topic I brought up often with family members. I complained about the fact that I had to 'do this spiritual process all over again' - even though I had already done it in a past life.


There is a reference in the same context of the scripture that states, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." This is the exact meaning I got from the 'angelical being.' One had nothing to do with the other as far as the 'birth' process was concerned. Being 'borne' anew of the spirit had nothing to do with the 'physical birth' into a new incarnation. See: 'again' in Greek.


So for me, (due to my direct spiritual experience) I don't get that this verse is an explicit reference to reincarnation what so ever.


Sincerely,


DKing
 
Another event in world history / at about the time reincarnation was rejected.


Hello,


The global climate cooled greatly as a result of a volcanic eruption in 535 AD that added enough volcanic-ash to the atmosphere to block-out sunlight.


Have any scholars made the connections amongst sixth-century climate change, and the condemation of Reincarnation by the Christian Church?


LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536
 
SMurphy said:
the need for Reincarnation in order for all of the fallen to return to the Father. "Not one will be lost."
http://probeatrice.ch/index.php/en/spiritual-world-online/special-edition-free-of-charge-detail
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Thanks for the thread. The subject is deep. The christians deny RCN because it denies Jesus was born of Mary (immaculate) and other things (levels of heaven/hell/purgatory/dimensions for example). It also implies psychism, which is not true spirituality or soulfulness or that Souls are most often reborn. However, being in the forum for children of past lives, may I say fallen is a term implying rebirth which is constant in most, but not always a 'given" >and I feel humans as lost children are only those who do not recognize themselves as Soul, and past life/karma. Soul is a child of God so the doctrine of Justinian was official removal of Soul as a concept.
 
Happy Easter Monday!


Yes it is tragic that modern Christianity has lost its way and does not recognize the preexistence of the soul, nor recognize the reason for reincarnation. Jesus could not explain these concepts to people of his time and therefore promised to send the Spirt of Truth to explain His words in all detail (John 15:26). Origen of Alexandria was one of these teachers. If you read his works, you will see that he fulfilled the promise of Jesus, but the world destroyed most his teachings. Since "My Word will never die", others have come to set straight the Christian teachings (when humanity was open to listen). Huldrych Zwingli and Matin Luther were two such reformists who attempted to restore early Christian teaching. Most recently Beatrice Brunner served as a vessel for two Teachers, Josef and Lene to fill in the many missing teachings that the world had destroyed (burned/transcribed).


The message has been consistent across all of the teachers, but the world (and the king of this world) has attempted to destroy the Truth. Why? Because it takes away their power! How can you have power over men on Earth if they believe in the story below?


The story is quite simple. In my opinion God created the Spiritual World a very, very long time ago. He created His Son (Jesus) out of Himself, with the same powers of creation. God lived with Jesus for a very long time before They decided to populate Heaven. God chose Jesus for this purpose. All of His children were created through Jesus. God gave each one the Spark of Life, but their (our) spiritual bodies came from Jesus. Jesus's first born was the Light Bearer (Lucifer) and this small family again lived a long time together before the next Angel was born. Then came the other 5 Archangels, completing the three pairs of Archangels (Lucifer-Raphael, Gabriel-Oholah, Michael-Oholibah). Over time, these families grew to 24 princes/princesses who head the 12 tribes of Heaven. (This spiritual family tree is well depicted in the Manorah given to Moses.)


The Heavenly families grew to an unimaginable quantity and at some point, Lucifer got the idea that he too could be a king in Heaven. For he too had lived alone together with God like Jesus. God had made Jesus alone the King of Heaven, but He had also given us all the Gift of Free Will. God and Jesus saw what Lucifer was doing, but They sat back and let Their children decide for themselves to either 1) accept Jesus is the only King of Heaven or 2) to consider allowing Lucifer to have his own kingdom. When every angel of Heaven had made their choice, God gave the order. Michael and his army purged Heaven of all who did not actively support Jesus as the sole King of Heaven. The battle that followed was the greatest and most tragic battle ever fought. Divine families were torn apart as 1/3 of the Angels were cast into Hell. Some of the visions that Jesus revealed to John have been passed on to us, but the the extent of the armageddon is truly lost to us. Every Archangel family was torn apart as Oholah and Oholibah followed Lucifer. Ten of the 24 princes of Heaven also fell. (Read Revelations 12).


In the aftermath, God and Jesus devised a plan to restore all the fallen to Heaven that respects individual Free Will. The physical world was created (out of nothing as the Big Bang theory tells us) as a foolproof way for the all the fallen to prove their/our loyalty to Jesus. It was disloyalty that got us here in the first place. We find ourselves in the middle of this plan,
 
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SMurphy said:
It is true that the vast majority of Origen scholars have not come to the conclusion that the early church taught reincarnation. But if we look at the magnitude of the book burning that took place in the 6th century, it is easy to see that scholars come to this conclusion if they only look at remaining texts. Look for example at his 32 book commentary on the Gospel of John (the most spiritual of the Gospels). Only fragments of 11 books were preserved from his original greek writings. Now look at what the Romans burnt and what they allowed to survive. Of course Origen's commentary on Nicodemus was burnt, therefore, we miss the explanation of the most explicit reference to reincarnation in the Bible: "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
What does remain for us to read today is Origen's treatment of John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah. See sections 24-25 at


Origen - Commentary on John Book 2


(This is one modern Scholar's view of Origen's restoration teaching. restoration article
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thats the funny thing, catholic church do accept reincarnation (of Elijah) but as a radical told me "it was an exception"
 
one good thing about living in Brazil is that here we have Spiritism, Brazil was the biggest catholic country in the world with about 90% of population, now they are down to about 60% with the rise of new protestants,


but spiritism is really big here, spiritsm is a christian religion that is based on reincarnation and has about 20 million followers (2x jewish followers worldwide) and almost 10% of brazils population of about 200M, the most famous spiritist medium have recently been elected from popular vote on a major tv network "the biggest brazilian of all times"


so here we have just like in many countries a big part of the population believing in reincarnation, but most of they are christians and are not afraid of openly accepting both things
 
My wife is moderately religious (Catholic) and we got married in her church. Without boring anyone with details, as a non-religious person I needed special permission to get married in the church and it was quickly granted to me, with the Deacon even commenting on how while these types of marriages can be tricky, ours will not be one of them (he was right:)). All they asked was that we attend a religious course with an open mind, which I agreed to. One thing I found fascinating about the course was that many, if not most of the regulars at church were VERY similar to me in their spiritual views. In fact, I believe I even mentioned the word reincarnation and nobody batted an eye: in fact many seemed to accept it as a very real possibility. That was quite a surprise to me!

She has even told me once she suspects it is a strong possibility she lived in Victorian era London and given she is an authority on this subject I would say that's a very likely possibility. At times, it's like she never left that era it resonates so strongly with her. I have never discussed with her my beliefs on this subject except to say I am open to it so she wasn't just saying it to make me feel comfortable.
 
Well the "problem" with Reincarnation, as some others have already alluded to, is that a religion cannot retain its hold over a person. In this life I am born a Hindu, but in my next life, who knows? Maybe a Christian or a Muslim - in this life i am a man, maybe I will change my gender next time. The idea behind Reincarnation is to instill in us that we are ALL brothers and sisters - God made us ALL - we are all equal in Her eyes

But for proselytizing religions intent on conversions that simply will not do - they retain control and power only by setting people apart based on religion. "Our God", "Their God" etc - "Only Our God will get us heaven" and of course the usual threats of Hell railed against non-members. To read posts from people, today in the 21st century, expressing a fear of Hell simply because they do not believe in God or changed religions is, frankly, very disappointing. It says God doesn't care for us as human beings, as individuals - all God cares about is one's religion, and rewards and punishes accordingly. Hitler did that - He did not see the Jew as a human being, all he was religion. ISIS has done the same - convert to Islam or else! While both the above have been called evil by almost everyone, the church slides by without any condemnation

The 2nd "problem" with Reincarnation is that it is simply not sexy. So many are tired of life, they find life too harsh, too difficult and the appeal of going away to some magic land in the sky where the living will be easy - no more pain or suffering, joy forever, eternal life - is hard to beat. Few, and again this frustrates me so much, stop and ask is that what God wants? Billions of people rolling about in Heaven doing nothing? Just enjoying the easy good life and that too just because they joined the "right" religion?

For me, Reincarnation means Life - that Life is a Gift - this is a Gift that God is giving us and is ready to give us as long as we want it. I don't believe life is forced on us and so those who choose to leave for Heaven will simply cease to exist or come back as a lower life form - i just don't believe that there is some magic land in the sky where billions get to snore away eternity
 
Y'shua bar Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph) taught reincarnation in Matthew 11:14-15, John 8:58, etc. The term 'reincarnation' didn't begin to appear until c. 1800 AD. In the 1st century, it was known as rebirth, transmigration-of-the-soul, metempsychosis (Greek), and resurrection. Of course, the definition 'resurrection' changed with the Easter Story.

'Death' is final for the human body. The Messiah/Christ miraculously had a near-death experience and may have lived another 40 years before dying and being buried in the Jesus Family Tomb in Talpiot. The Ascension Story in Acts is a myth that helped give Jesus God-incarnate status and protected him and his family from any further persecution by the Romans and Jewish leaders.
 
As far as I know early christian believed in reincarnation. But that was removed from the actual religion.
 
Ironically, it was my past life memories in combination with wise words of the Dalai Lama and Ancient Greek philosophers what got me back to Jesus in the end.
Sounds totally crazy, doesn't it?

I do not like to call myself "Christian". Too much has been done in the name of organized religions. I'd rather stay open-minded. All the different religions, personally I see them as different ways to find God/Source inside your own heart.
When I got my most disturbing memories, at the same time I seemed to get the message that I must forgive. Myself as well as others. And that I should strive to live with the people around me in a peaceful and tolerant manner. No judgement. Unconditional love. Such things.

Anyway, I do not see why it shouldn't be possible to believe in Jesus and reincarnation at the same time.
 
SeekerOfKnowledge said:
I do not see why it shouldn't be possible to believe in Jesus and reincarnation at the same time.
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Yes. Especially when Jesus implies he was reincarnated, himself. I find it humorous that some Christians find it easier to believe certain individuals are transported through time and dropped into the future for certain prophecies or come up with complicated alternative explanations for flat out statements that "this person is that historic individual" ... just to avoid the hint that reincarnation is possible. *shrug*
 
SeekerOfKnowledge said:
Ironically, it was my past life memories in combination with wise words of the Dalai Lama and Ancient Greek philosophers what got me back to Jesus in the end.
Sounds totally crazy, doesn't it?

I do not like to call myself "Christian". Too much has been done in the name of organized religions. I'd rather stay open-minded. All the different religions, personally I see them as different ways to find God/Source inside your own heart.
When I got my most disturbing memories, at the same time I seemed to get the message that I must forgive. Myself as well as others. And that I should strive to live with the people around me in a peaceful and tolerant manner. No judgement. Unconditional love. Such things.

Anyway, I do not see why it shouldn't be possible to believe in Jesus and reincarnation at the same time.
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How do you reconcile such views with a religion that goes around the world telling people that they are going to hell if they are not with Jesus? Basically saying what we did in life doesn't matter, what matters who we pray to - basically like things are done in corrupt countries - it matters whom you know rather than what you know
So, if you believe that who you are as a person is what matters, not religion, then you don't need Jesus
 
Mere Dreamer said:
Yes. Especially when Jesus implies he was reincarnated, himself. I find it humorous that some Christians find it easier to believe certain individuals are transported through time and dropped into the future for certain prophecies or come up with complicated alternative explanations for flat out statements that "this person is that historic individual" ... just to avoid the hint that reincarnation is possible. *shrug*
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Reincarnation is just a word - basically these are ideas on what happens after we die - basically the idea that we go off to some magic land where the living will be easy - ie Heaven - or Reincarnation ie this same world. What Hinduism is saying is that there is only this world & so those who think they are going to Heaven will come back as lower life forms - pets - dogs, cats etc - they get to live the easy good life sitting around doing nothing
 
Halo everyone,

I seem to have found a solution for the question why the church and the bible seem to deny reincarnation. It was God's will to do so to prevent people to judge and punish each other. I can't post it here because of double post. You find my post, my experience with God and rememberings of past lifes, in the thread reincarnation and the bible on page 5, bottom.
http://www.reincarnationforum.com/threads/reincarnation-and-the-bible.709/page-5#post-113491
 
Karma and Reincarnation used to be in the bible

As I understand it originally the concept of reincarnation was well known during the time of Christ and was during the first few hundred years after his death as it was taught and originally a part of the bible.

However it was taken out of the bible by the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great around 325 AD. The church back then which was the center of all life and government wanted the concept removed and edited out of the bible as the church saw that having knowledge of the souls pre existence would give the masses more control over their destiny and lives. Where by editing this out of scripture and instead having the general public going thru the church instead as the spokes person to ask god’s for forgiveness of sin gave the church more power and control over the masses. Remember that todays scholars believed that most Romans weren’t fully literate. Rather, they were what we might call semi-literate. They might recognize letters, but they’d have to get by on very formulaic expressions to make any sense of things. The evidence indicates that most had a very hard time expressing themselves in writing, and they probably would have struggled to understand a non-formulaic text. This put the church in a very good position in controling the masses in what the bible said giving it ultimate power.

Had the concept of reincarnation and karma been kept in the bible Christianity today as we know it would have been a far different spiritual path. Many Christians today have no knowledge of this now as the bibles that are in circulations today have these spiritual concepts edited out of them. And have so for many centuries now.

However the phrase what you sow; so shall you reap is still in the bible; (guess they missed this one) and this is the nature of karma in action.

Well that's my two cents worth anyway.

P.
 
Tinkerman said:
Thanks Nighttrain for the interesting article. As a Catholic and as a firm believer in reincarnation, I'm happy to see that these conversations are starting to surface. Religion is a funny thing because it is so captivating and restrictive. We believe therefore we cannot see...we belong therefore we can not seek...we are this and therefore can't be that. I am a Catholic because that is what we (my family, my people) have been for centuries. It is my heritage and my culture...and its the only church of any kind for many, many miles. But one very important lesson that I've learned in my day is that the journey of "religion" is a personal one. I believe the mistake folks make is in surrendering their ability to discern and learn. They relinquish the greatest gift (their right to seek) to doctrine and dogma. I refuse to do that! I will go to any flavor of church; I love the time I spend with my Buddhist friends. My best friend, now deceased, once called me a heretic (he was a Catholic priest!: angel) for talking about the foolishness of doctrine. I openly talked about my belief in reincarnation with him; he simply rolled his eyes. But it was another Catholic priest, whom I've mentioned in my own reincarnation story, who told me not to doubt the gifts I've been given. He was a very sacred man, and the way he spoke made me think he knew a lot more than he was letting on.


I believe deeply that each of us must make this journey through life in step with our own individual course. To jump on a bandwagon and blindly hang on with the belief that it will get you there reminds me of the movie line in Godspell "blind fools!" Yes, faith is what it is called; the act of accepting something with trust surrendered. But I believe we were given the curiosity to seek the truth. I feel very fortunate to have walked the path I'm on. It is not over, and every step takes me further into it. Really to me the word "religion," the word "church," and all these other conceptual definitions are noise. The real truth is within each one of us. I think that obviously some of the early Christian leaders knew this too...and its good to see some of it popping up. But will anyone listen? Some might; others will label it New Age, satanic, heretical.... Ultimately, no matter what flavor your belief, creed or religion is...we're all talking about the same God/Creator/Spirit etc...we're just using different words, different cultural tradition, and a myriad of perspectives to try and define or encapsulate something that is far beyond our senses. But hey, isn't this journey a great one!


Well, I best git off this soapbox. Reincarnation and religion will, in my opinion, always be linked. They are simply the Way we are given to reach that ultimate destination. Discussions like this allow us to work out the kinks. Too many times they get carried away and thus we will be diligent here, but it IS important to have threads like this because it is of such great importance to those, like myself, who are apart of the Christian faith. And, as I said many times, Christianity and reincarnation do not contradict each other as some want to purport.


Tman
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Tman, if it were not so well written, I would have thought I had written it, as it was so close to my own beliefs.

Just to be more precise, what Jesus did for us was to wipe out all past 'karma' without which we would never have been able to attain the elevation of so many souls, as all souls were burdened by past deeds and imperfect in their corruptness. Most souls were down below, unable to help themselves or to advance beyond the lowliest state. By following Jesus and the ten commandments over time, both individuals and society elevated themselves and were ready for the latter part of the Age, when God would reveal greater knowledge among those who believed.

At the same time as scientific knowledge was being revealed, there was an anti-God movement, a humanist one, whose purpose was to deny God as Creator and replace Him with man. This period was called "the Enlightenment," but it should have been called the "latter Dark ages."

What I am saying is that while reincarnation is true, we both individually and collectively stay in a position of slavery until we are in Christ. As you can see , I have the tag name "The last age," but when I wrote that, I did not realise that the idea of the last age is in the Bible, in Hebrews to be exact, as I took it from my knowledge of how the stars show our destiny and our judgment, and that there are 12 ages during which humanity is developed by God. He came in the last one,the last age of pisces , after which time , the final judgment will take place .

So, the idea of Ages is clear in the Bible but never is mentioned in the RCC or by other Christians who follow without question certain beliefs, while denying others like reincarnation as being part of how God teaches us. Many of the religions like Hinduism and Buddhism (all the world) are profiting from the advances brought about by the Judaic /Christian world as everyone uses the technology and science which came out of this culture. Einstein, a Jew, went to school in a Catholic culture, and most greats were Christian.

We are struggling against the determined ignorance of most Christians, Catholic, and fundamentalist as I believe that while many Orthodox are too, they are less entrenched, and many are open to know more, seeking that is.
 
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The last age. said:
I had a problem editing so all is not as clear as it should be, sorry.
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Hello, Last Age.

Thank you for your post. Yes, we do see eye to eye on this topic. Isn't it a marvel how creation evolves; it's such a beautiful thing when we take the time to think about it. Open minds are the vast domain of the Great I Am!

I edited your post for you, it should read correctly now. What is your first language?

Thanks again, and many blessings. ~Tman
 
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